OrionW wrote: I don't see the concern with +3 damage on a limited use item, designed for players that have a smaller token collection. If this is really a concern what about Potion of Surtr's Strength which is +6 strength and higher level players will easily have 4 points of fire resistance?
Potion Surtr's Strength is comparable to (and, in fact,
weaker than) an existing Rare,
Potion Zealot Brew
and available to everyone. It's also a consumable and turned in after use, meaning there's an actual cost to using it.
The limit on Trinkets are more akin to thrown weapons, such a
+1 Thrall Faerie-Iron Skull
or
Skull of Doom
: it's "limited use" in the sense that each individual token cannot be used more than once per dungeon (combat), but you can get around this limitation by bringing an additional copy of the token; and because it's not turned in after use, you can keep it forever and bring it into the next dungeon (combat) with you. In both cases, a stack of 4 or so should serve your needs for the entire dungeon.
If Trinkets were turned in like Polymorph potions, then yes, it
absolutely makes sense for them to grant additional damage, to compensate for burning a token. That they do not, but strictly outclass both previous Rare Polymorph potions and current Rare weapons, is a problem.
OrionW wrote: On the subject of limited use tokens, why use a limited use token if it isn't materially better than a mystic staff that is magic and does damage at range?
It's reusable. It's not turned in. You keep it forever. You can use it in the next dungeon. You can accrue (or purchase) enough to effectively remove the limit. It outclasses every reusable weapon.
If you were truly concerned about limited use tokens, where's the complaints about Scrolls? Each use may have a higher damage than a Trinket, but each can only be used once (ever; not unlimited uses for a combat). Why would anyone ever use Scrolls?
OrionW wrote: (Kind of side point here, but with the propensity of Undead to be used in dungeon design
Which recent dungeons have had so many Undead that a Cleric's Turn Undead outshines a good smack to the face?
OrionW wrote: it seems like a Cleric is going to be a lot more of a jack of all trades at high level with a Staff of the Sun (doing double damage to undead)/Staff of the Ancients otherwise at range,
Clerics do not have an exclusive lock on Mystic Staves. Anything a Cleric can do with them, Wizards (gear + base stat), Elves (gear), and Druids (base stat) can do better, and Monks can do the same. Only Bards (base stat) is a weaker user of Mystic Staves.
Mystic Staff of the Sun is not the only token that deals Sacred damage. A small stack of Sun Shuriken, Sun Daggers, or Moon Daggers also allows other players to deal Sacred damage at ranged.
Clerics don't even have any innate Sacred damage from their class powers, or exclusive tokens.
OrionW wrote: and healing and buffing using DSK as free actions.
Why are you now bringing in DSN into this conversation? Weren't we concerned with balance of this token in sealed pack runs? Clerics won't get a DSN in a sealed pack, but Druids might get a reusable slotless that effectively grants 3 Melee damage for a room.
OrionW wrote: This logic probably leads to the Cleric legendary being nerfed... is this really what we want?
If it's overpowered, sure; go nerf it to bring the class in line. But I'm not convinced it is; if DSN for two Prayers in a dungeon is a problem, then Bard's WLL is a bigger problem: it grants the same +2 to hit bonus, also makes the action required to do so effectively costless,
and adds an additional +2 damage.
Without their class Legendaries, Clerics and Bards would be spending their SA to provide buffs, and sit around passively during combat. With some URs, Bards could participate in combat too, but Clerics would be on standby to heal up any damage taken in the previous round -- if they swung too early before someone spoke up asking for healing, they'd have no recourse but to wait another round before they could heal. Is that what we want to go back to here?
If your complaint here is that Iktomi's is weak compared to well, every other class Legendary, I agree. But that doesn't mean DSN is too strong; and it definitely doesn't mean we should be designing Rares that are competitive against Iktomi's to make it an even weaker option.
OrionW wrote: Druids had their moment in the sun,
"had"? Druids are considered near the top in damage, while also providing healing support out of combat.
OrionW wrote: but Cleric's are clearly ascendant...
At the top end, Druids are getting at least +6 damage that Clerics don't, while Clerics get a whopping +2.5 that Druids don't.
At the UR-only tier, Druids are getting +2 damage that Clerics don't, while Clerics are getting an entire +1 that Druids don't
Yes, very clearly, Clerics are on the rise.
OrionW wrote: and this is before we get to AC maybe mattering for oblivion checks in mythic difficulty)
Again: are we talking about new players or high-end players here?
Since AC is so great and matters so much, why don't grant that to this token? Make this something like: [2-4-6-8-10-12] +2 to AC and +2 to hit in Melee.
OrionW wrote: When you look at the game holistically, I just don't see a problem with trinkets.
You really don't see the problem of a reusable Rare, that you can bring multiple copies of, so you can use them every combat of a dungeon, having a higher average damage than an UR token? That a Druid, the "jack of all trades", can spend ~$8 to deal about the same damage as another class spending ~$80; or flipped around, that a non-Druid needs to spend ~$80 in order to have a weapon that deals the same average damage as some tokens a Druid can pick up for $8?