TOPIC: 2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East

Trinket of Bearform (correctness):
This Trinket appears to be missing (1/game) and (slotless).
Given that Trinket of Trollform was meant to be transmuted into DP, this should also be marked as DP (and not AG).

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Trinket of Bearform (damage wheel):
Why the average damage is 9?

Why is this reusable (token is not handed in, unlike a potion), stackable (you can bring a large stack to work around the (1/game) restriction) token higher damage than other weapons in the Rare category? In fact, it compares very favourably against many recent UR weapons:


What justification is there for Druids to have a Rare token that has higher average damage than UR weapons in their hands, and completely useless for anyone else? Or, flipped another way, why do Druids exclusively get a token that might as well read: "+3 Melee damage (does not stack) (may be reused)"?

What if we adjusted the damage wheel to be:
[2-4-6-8-10-12] +2 AC and +2 to hit in Melee

I don't see the concern with +3 damage on a limited use item, designed for players that have a smaller token collection. If this is really a concern what about Potion of Surtr's Strength which is +6 strength and higher level players will easily have 4 points of fire resistance?

On the subject of limited use tokens, why use a limited use token if it isn't materially better than a mystic staff that is magic and does damage at range? (Kind of side point here, but with the propensity of Undead to be used in dungeon design it seems like a Cleric is going to be a lot more of a jack of all trades at high level with a Staff of the Sun (doing double damage to undead)/Staff of the Ancients otherwise at range, and healing and buffing using DSK as free actions. This logic probably leads to the Cleric legendary being nerfed... is this really what we want? Druids had their moment in the sun, but Cleric's are clearly ascendant... and this is before we get to AC maybe mattering for oblivion checks in mythic difficulty)

When you look at the game holistically, I just don't see a problem with trinkets.

OrionW wrote: I don't see the concern with +3 damage on a limited use item, designed for players that have a smaller token collection. If this is really a concern what about Potion of Surtr's Strength which is +6 strength and higher level players will easily have 4 points of fire resistance?

Potion Surtr's Strength is comparable to (and, in fact, weaker than) an existing Rare, Potion Zealot Brew and available to everyone. It's also a consumable and turned in after use, meaning there's an actual cost to using it.
The limit on Trinkets are more akin to thrown weapons, such a +1 Thrall Faerie-Iron Skull or Skull of Doom : it's "limited use" in the sense that each individual token cannot be used more than once per dungeon (combat), but you can get around this limitation by bringing an additional copy of the token; and because it's not turned in after use, you can keep it forever and bring it into the next dungeon (combat) with you. In both cases, a stack of 4 or so should serve your needs for the entire dungeon.
If Trinkets were turned in like Polymorph potions, then yes, it absolutely makes sense for them to grant additional damage, to compensate for burning a token. That they do not, but strictly outclass both previous Rare Polymorph potions and current Rare weapons, is a problem.

OrionW wrote: On the subject of limited use tokens, why use a limited use token if it isn't materially better than a mystic staff that is magic and does damage at range?

It's reusable. It's not turned in. You keep it forever. You can use it in the next dungeon. You can accrue (or purchase) enough to effectively remove the limit. It outclasses every reusable weapon.
If you were truly concerned about limited use tokens, where's the complaints about Scrolls? Each use may have a higher damage than a Trinket, but each can only be used once (ever; not unlimited uses for a combat). Why would anyone ever use Scrolls?

OrionW wrote: (Kind of side point here, but with the propensity of Undead to be used in dungeon design

Which recent dungeons have had so many Undead that a Cleric's Turn Undead outshines a good smack to the face?

OrionW wrote: it seems like a Cleric is going to be a lot more of a jack of all trades at high level with a Staff of the Sun (doing double damage to undead)/Staff of the Ancients otherwise at range,

Clerics do not have an exclusive lock on Mystic Staves. Anything a Cleric can do with them, Wizards (gear + base stat), Elves (gear), and Druids (base stat) can do better, and Monks can do the same. Only Bards (base stat) is a weaker user of Mystic Staves.
Mystic Staff of the Sun is not the only token that deals Sacred damage. A small stack of Sun Shuriken, Sun Daggers, or Moon Daggers also allows other players to deal Sacred damage at ranged.
Clerics don't even have any innate Sacred damage from their class powers, or exclusive tokens.

OrionW wrote: and healing and buffing using DSK as free actions.

Why are you now bringing in DSN into this conversation? Weren't we concerned with balance of this token in sealed pack runs? Clerics won't get a DSN in a sealed pack, but Druids might get a reusable slotless that effectively grants 3 Melee damage for a room.

OrionW wrote: This logic probably leads to the Cleric legendary being nerfed... is this really what we want?

If it's overpowered, sure; go nerf it to bring the class in line. But I'm not convinced it is; if DSN for two Prayers in a dungeon is a problem, then Bard's WLL is a bigger problem: it grants the same +2 to hit bonus, also makes the action required to do so effectively costless, and adds an additional +2 damage.
Without their class Legendaries, Clerics and Bards would be spending their SA to provide buffs, and sit around passively during combat. With some URs, Bards could participate in combat too, but Clerics would be on standby to heal up any damage taken in the previous round -- if they swung too early before someone spoke up asking for healing, they'd have no recourse but to wait another round before they could heal. Is that what we want to go back to here?
If your complaint here is that Iktomi's is weak compared to well, every other class Legendary, I agree. But that doesn't mean DSN is too strong; and it definitely doesn't mean we should be designing Rares that are competitive against Iktomi's to make it an even weaker option.

OrionW wrote: Druids had their moment in the sun,

"had"? Druids are considered near the top in damage, while also providing healing support out of combat.

OrionW wrote: but Cleric's are clearly ascendant...

At the top end, Druids are getting at least +6 damage that Clerics don't, while Clerics get a whopping +2.5 that Druids don't.
At the UR-only tier, Druids are getting +2 damage that Clerics don't, while Clerics are getting an entire +1 that Druids don't
Yes, very clearly, Clerics are on the rise.

OrionW wrote: and this is before we get to AC maybe mattering for oblivion checks in mythic difficulty)

Again: are we talking about new players or high-end players here?
Since AC is so great and matters so much, why don't grant that to this token? Make this something like: [2-4-6-8-10-12] +2 to AC and +2 to hit in Melee.

OrionW wrote: When you look at the game holistically, I just don't see a problem with trinkets.

You really don't see the problem of a reusable Rare, that you can bring multiple copies of, so you can use them every combat of a dungeon, having a higher average damage than an UR token? That a Druid, the "jack of all trades", can spend ~$8 to deal about the same damage as another class spending ~$80; or flipped around, that a non-Druid needs to spend ~$80 in order to have a weapon that deals the same average damage as some tokens a Druid can pick up for $8?

Druegar’s Sacred Necklace is relevant, as cleric's are uniquely qualified to start using a Mystic Staff build. Their class legendary allows them to cast as a free action, so they can fire off magical attacks at range with the staff every turn. They have a synergy to this build type that other classes can't easily duplicate. This is not a build that druid's can duplicate in effectiveness.

We are just getting to the point were there is enough wisdom to make the build viable, but going forward it would seem that clerics doing damage against undead who are vulnerable to sacred with Mystic Staff of the Sun , should become the dominate cleric meta.

Edit: this is also why it feels like why limiting the +1 damage on Thor's Holy Symbol to melee feels off. I just don't see clerics as a melee class going forward. You basically have two healers: druids that favor melee through polymorph, and clerics that favor range.

I just read the FAQ again.

Druegar wrote: Trinket Use
There is no limit on the number of trinkets you can bring into the dungeon with you nor with the number of times you can use a trinket per room. However, the one monster form per room rule is still in effect. You can go into and out of one particular form within any given room as many times as you like--assuming you have the resources to effect each change. E.g., if you have both Trinket of Trollform and Trinket of Bearform, you could hypothetically cycle between Troll form and your normal humanoid form dozens of times, but you could not cycle back and forth between Troll and Bear within a single room.

You can't be serious.

With this new ruling, Trinkets are now effectively just weapons (that are not called or transmuted as weapons) with a higher damage wheel. There's no cost (turning in, spending an action) or limitation (once per room) to using them any more. A single one lasts you the entire dungeon -- no need to collect more than one.

Iktomi's is now completely worthless. The only advantages it granted are now gone: Spells can be cast if you de-Polymorph (and now there's no cost to re-Polymorph using Trinkets); Trinkets do not need to be turned in (unlike potions), and since Trinkets have higher damage, there's little to no reason to burn a Potion instead; and that extra 2 damage over Bearform can instead be substituted with a Rare necklace that grants +4 Polymorph damage. Elemental form's DR is possibly the only reason to use it, but 10 damage is just a heal after combat.

... why am I still here trying to provide balance when TPTB clearly aren't caring? You know what, screw it; just print a Rare that says "on hit set both enemy and own HP to 0". At least then everyone will be on an equal footing.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: I just read the FAQ again.

Druegar wrote: Trinket Use
There is no limit on the number of trinkets you can bring into the dungeon with you nor with the number of times you can use a trinket per room. However, the one monster form per room rule is still in effect. You can go into and out of one particular form within any given room as many times as you like--assuming you have the resources to effect each change. E.g., if you have both Trinket of Trollform and Trinket of Bearform, you could hypothetically cycle between Troll form and your normal humanoid form dozens of times, but you could not cycle back and forth between Troll and Bear within a single room.

You can't be serious.

With this new ruling, Trinkets are now effectively just weapons (that are not called or transmuted as weapons) with a higher damage wheel. There's no cost (turning in, spending an action) or limitation (once per room) to using them any more. A single one lasts you the entire dungeon -- no need to collect more than one.

Iktomi's is now completely worthless. The only advantages it granted are now gone: Spells can be cast if you de-Polymorph (and now there's no cost to re-Polymorph using Trinkets); Trinkets do not need to be turned in (unlike potions), and since Trinkets have higher damage, there's little to no reason to burn a Potion instead; and that extra 2 damage over Bearform can instead be substituted with a Rare necklace that grants +4 Polymorph damage. Elemental form's DR is possibly the only reason to use it, but 10 damage is just a heal after combat.

... why am I still here trying to provide balance when TPTB clearly aren't caring? You know what, screw it; just print a Rare that says "on hit set both enemy and own HP to 0". At least then everyone will be on an equal footing.

+1

OrionW wrote: Druegar’s Sacred Necklace is relevant, as cleric's are uniquely qualified to start using a Mystic Staff build. Their class legendary allows them to cast as a free action, so they can fire off magical attacks at range with the staff every turn. They have a synergy to this build type that other classes can't easily duplicate. This is not a build that druid's can duplicate in effectiveness.

Please read the entry on Druegar’s Sacred Necklace .
Mystic Staves are weapons. They are neither 1st-level nor 2nd-level Spells. They are not marked off of the character card.
They have absolutely no synergy with DSN.

Even if they did, what would you be doing with your Standard Action? Your hand are full of Mystic Staff, and it takes a Free Action (whoops you just burned it) to swap handheld items.

OrionW wrote: We are just getting to the point were there is enough wisdom to make the build viable, but going forward it would seem that clerics doing damage against undead who are vulnerable to sacred with Mystic Staff of the Sun , should become the dominate cleric meta.

A Sun Dagger deals similar damage (~3.5 + STR, vs ~5.5), but can be used in Melee (for the rare instance where Melee is the only option) and is not turned off by anti-magic field.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

OrionW wrote: Druegar’s Sacred Necklace is relevant, as cleric's are uniquely qualified to start using a Mystic Staff build. Their class legendary allows them to cast as a free action, so they can fire off magical attacks at range with the staff every turn. They have a synergy to this build type that other classes can't easily duplicate. This is not a build that druid's can duplicate in effectiveness.

Please read the entry on Druegar’s Sacred Necklace .
Mystic Staves are weapons. They are neither 1st-level nor 2nd-level Spells. They are not marked off of the character card.
They have absolutely no synergy with DSN.

Even if they did, what would you be doing with your Standard Action? Your hand are full of Mystic Staff, and it takes a Free Action (whoops you just burned it) to swap handheld items.

OrionW wrote: We are just getting to the point were there is enough wisdom to make the build viable, but going forward it would seem that clerics doing damage against undead who are vulnerable to sacred with Mystic Staff of the Sun , should become the dominate cleric meta.

A Sun Dagger deals similar damage (~3.5 + STR, vs ~5.5), but can be used in Melee (for the rare instance where Melee is the only option) and is not turned off by anti-magic field.

If you want to swap a slotted item it takes a free action, there is nothing in the rules preventing you from holding the staff in your off-hand while casting a spell. You wouldn't get the bonus of a slotted melee item for the spell, but it should work. With that said the PHB should probably have a section on mystic staves.

I think we would all agree that ranged damage is generally superior to melee damage right?

Also while there are melee items that are far superior to Sun Dagger we don't have any relic or mystic staves yet (with that said the Sun Dagger might be the better option if the amount of damage added for being vulnerable sacred is bigger than the amount added from other items).

OrionW wrote: If you want to swap a slotted item it takes a free action, there is nothing in the rules preventing you from holding the staff in your off-hand while casting a spell. You wouldn't get the bonus of a slotted melee item for the spell, but it should work. With that said the PHB should probably have a section on mystic staves.

How does this address DSN's lack of synergy with Mystic Staves (i.e., it takes a Standard Action to attack with one), and how Druids, Wizards, and Elves have better support (in tokens and/or base stats) for them than Cleric?

Mystic staves are two-handed (mainhand) weapon. You cannot hold a two-handed weapon in just your off-hand. Nothing is special about Mystic Staves that would make them not conform to the normal rules for (two-handed, mainhand weapon) tokens.

OrionW wrote: I think we would all agree that ranged damage is generally superior to melee damage right?

Also while there are melee items that are far superior to Sun Dagger we don't have any relic or mystic staves yet (with that said the Sun Dagger might be the better option if the amount of damage added for being vulnerable sacred is bigger than the amount added from other items).

Apologies for being less clear in my previous statement. I brought up Sun Daggers as they are also Sacred-only weapons that can be Thrown at Ranged, and as Thrown weapons, also gain STR bonuses to damage, meaning their somewhat lower average damage can be compensated by both base STR and tokens that incidentally increase STR while increasing Ranged combat abilities (e.g., Arcanum Shirt).

The ability to function in Melee and anti-magic is just a side bonus that Mystic Staves do not have.
As a drawback, you need one per round of combat (or two if Monk); or have something that grants a Returning effect... but Rare tokens are cheap.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

OrionW wrote: If you want to swap a slotted item it takes a free action, there is nothing in the rules preventing you from holding the staff in your off-hand while casting a spell. You wouldn't get the bonus of a slotted melee item for the spell, but it should work. With that said the PHB should probably have a section on mystic staves.

How does this address DSN's lack of synergy with Mystic Staves (i.e., it takes a Standard Action to attack with one), and how Druids, Wizards, and Elves have better support (in tokens and/or base stats) for them than Cleric?

Mystic staves are two-handed (mainhand) weapon. You cannot hold a two-handed weapon in just your off-hand. Nothing is special about Mystic Staves that would make them not conform to the normal rules for (two-handed, mainhand weapon) tokens.

OrionW wrote: I think we would all agree that ranged damage is generally superior to melee damage right?

Also while there are melee items that are far superior to Sun Dagger we don't have any relic or mystic staves yet (with that said the Sun Dagger might be the better option if the amount of damage added for being vulnerable sacred is bigger than the amount added from other items).

Apologies for being less clear in my previous statement. I brought up Sun Daggers as they are also Sacred-only weapons that can be Thrown at Ranged, and as Thrown weapons, also gain STR bonuses to damage, meaning their somewhat lower average damage can be compensated by both base STR and tokens that incidentally increase STR while increasing Ranged combat abilities (e.g., Arcanum Shirt).

The ability to function in Melee and anti-magic is just a side bonus that Mystic Staves do not have.
As a drawback, you need one per round of combat (or two if Monk); or have something that grants a Returning effect... but Rare tokens are cheap.

Considering that outside of heavy crossbows you can load other two-handed weapons the same turn you fire them, it would seem that you can hold them with one hand. But to be clear there are no rules for this. The game doesn't say you can't hold the weapon and cast a spell. It just says that you can get the bonus from a focus item while holding it. I get that this is a grey area... they really should add a section on Mystic Staves to the PHB.

If you can hold the staff in one hand when you cast your spell as a free action, you should be able to then use your standard action to use the staff. Free actions being only necessary if you are swapping the item in the slot.

OrionW wrote: Considering that outside of heavy crossbows you can load other two-handed weapons the same turn you fire them, it would seem that you can hold them with one hand. But to be clear there are no rules for this. The game doesn't say you can't hold the weapon and cast a spell. It just says that you can get the bonus from a focus item while holding it. I get that this is a grey area... they really should add a section on Mystic Staves to the PHB.

If you can hold the staff in one hand when you cast your spell as a free action, you should be able to then use your standard action to use the staff. Free actions being only necessary if you are swapping the item in the slot.

As per the PHB, section "How to Read a Token":

Hand Icons: Two black hands at the bottom means the item (almost always a weapon or bard instrument) requires both hands to use. One black and one white hand means the item (typically a weapon or shield) requires only one free hand to use.

It's clear that you cannot hold two-handed items in one hand; otherwise, Barbarians would be allowed to equip both Deathcleaver and Giln's at the same time, and the proposed Shield Maiden Bracers would be functionally useless beyond the +1 saves.

As per the PHB, section "Spells":

Casting a Spell or scroll requires the caster to perform gestures with their hands. A shield may be actively used in the off-hand, but the caster’s mainhand must be free. The only exception to this is a Focus weapon. The enchantment on a Focus weapon allows the wielder to cast a Spell (not a scroll) while the weapon is being held. Focus weapons do not bestow the ability to cast and physically attack at the same time.

Mystic Staves are not (innately) Focus weapon. Holding a Mystic Staff occupies your main hand; and therefore, you cannot cast a Spell while holding one.

There is no grey area; the rule for this are all in the PHB. Mystic Staves do not behave any differently from any other existing tokens; they do not need a section to specifically say, "Mystic Staves behave like every other token in the game".

Your response still does not address how DSN does not have innate synergy with Mystic Staves.

What you are discussing is slotting two items as a barbarian at the same time (violating the hands rule). That is not at all what I am saying. The question is can you hold a staff in one hand when casting the same way you hold a 2 handed ranged weapon when loading it. The rules for casting are (as you pointed out):

Casting a Spell or scroll requires the caster to perform gestures with their hands. A shield may be actively used in the off-hand, but the caster’s mainhand must be free.

It does not say that they need to be unslotted and even talks about holding a shield actively in one hand. I don't see why you couldn't hold the staff cast and then hold it with two hands again. The free action is specifically for switching a different item into a slot.

p.42 of the PBH:

Swapping a slotted item (except between two heavy crossbows, see Unusual Timing Rules)

Nothing is being swapped, nor is it required. I don't see anywhere that it says you need to have your melee equipment equipped to cast a spell.