TOPIC: 2025 Ultra Rare Tokens

So the Shield of Guarding: paladin gets +3 AC and the ability? Or does the “or” on the token mean paladin can choose +4 AC and not have that ability? Seems unclear to me.

I certainly miss the ability to Guard a ranged attack but I know I can’t have everything.

Oh my goodness PLEASE don't plan a nerf to the Assassin's Crossbow only to move that same ability on to a pair of Gloves for Melee.

If you have to change the synergy between the Crossbow and the Necklace, please give us all some idea of what that plan is.

A lot of Rogue players (myself included) have already invested in a lot of tokens building around this necklace and the crossbow:

At minimum:
(In Addition to the Legendary Rogue Necklace for the expanded crit range, which on its own may or may not lose in-game value due to a change)
UR Glasses (2 options) to be able to crit and sneak attack at range.
UR Weapon to get crit multiplier at range

And then add:
UR wrist or bead to ensure that critical hits affect all monsters
multiple UR or better tokens that increase ranged damage or hit
possibly a choice of hireling or follower that increases ranged damage or hit

If all of a sudden the ranged build doesn't synergize for 3x damage on crits, but a melee build does, a LOT of tokens I spent significant time and money collecting won't be as useful to me if I want to have a good Rogue build. I do NOT want the token pool to force me to switch from ranged to melee, effectively starting over.

I can only assume that the plan somehow involves taking away an ability from the necklace, so that BOTH the crossbow and gloves can 3x crit, but less often. That worries me just as much if not more, I also don't want the first legendary I ever made to suddenly not be a token I want to use any more. So what's the necklace going to do instead?

So PLEASE give some insight what the plans are for "adjusting" this synergy, before we balance new tokens around what might happen next year.

It seems there are a lot of sweeping changes brewing and it's making me reconsider whether to buy any more tokens until the dust has settled, or whether to collect tokens at all.

This isn't just all about Rogues, either. Seems a lot of the classes are in need of major rework, and I don't feel confident buying hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of tokens not knowing how they will work a year from now.

The game definitely needs some rebalancing, but stability is also important when the toys cost this much.

Charm of Critical Taunts:
I love this idea, I suggest changing wording to "Extends ALL criticals to "19-20" during the rd Taunt is activated" that way 4th level dwarves get a normal crit extender, and 5th levels get a enhanced crit extender

Charm of the Hedgehog: +10 is a lot for a charm slot. Please consider [+2, +4, +6]. Or [+4, +6, +8]

Coin of Temptation: Seems perfect!

Death Knight Helm: Absolutely Wonderful! 10/10

Holy Symbol of Selinwa: I liked the slide effect more personally, but this seems perfectly fine. A bit niche but a okay power lvel.

Nightshade's Grim Gloves: Is this supposed to be all crits or just sneak attacks? If its only melee sneak attacks then this will be fine. If it is all I'd say giving DF 5th level power away on a UR is a little much. I can see this effect being at the end of a transmute chain.

Picc's Grindstone: I think this was a lot better as a runestone slot personally. It is kinda insanely strong as a slotless, and I'd just advise against it personally.

Runestone Fitting Base: An odd reprint since its already low value and Picc's is no longer a Runestone

Shield of Guarding: It feels wrong for Paladin to loose AC. If that was intentional for balance of the Shadowskin effect I can see it. I don't have numbers, but I'd 10000% trade 1/AC for an absorb 1 hit effect. So while a little weird to me, its a token I'd love as a Paladin.

Thor's Mug of Melee: I think this is probably too powerful. If we make AC matter more in game design it may be neat choice so all the damage gremlins (myself included) have to think twice before nerfing our AC even further. Consider lowering damage to +2

I like the Charm of Critical Taunts as something that combines the two distinctive Dwarf Fighter abilities.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Greaves maybe -2 for consistency?

I seem to recall the original plan was for four -2 greaves against multi-elements, Melee, Missile, and Spell, but the treasure-box Rare Stalker’s Greaves were already a thing before Arcanum Greaves was conceived as an idea. I'm assuming the two Ranged greaves will each be -3 to make the URs be better than Stalker's Greaves.

OrionW wrote: Charm of Critical Taunts
I like this change, but it is duplicative of Kilgor's and Viv's so I would recommend either a larger enhanced range or a different ability.

I initially misread it that way too, but this doesn't grant expanded Crit range; it expands the 5th level Power that causes natural 20s to deal 3× damage.

Impy wrote: Charm of the Hedgehog: +10 is a lot for a charm slot. Please consider [+2, +4, +6]. Or [+4, +6, +8]

The 2022 completion Rare Charm of Thorns and 2018 completion Rare Charm of Thorny Barbs each grant 2 RD. This should grant more than that at minimum.

Impy wrote: Thor's Mug of Melee: I think this is probably too powerful. If we make AC matter more in game design it may be neat choice so all the damage gremlins (myself included) have to think twice before nerfing our AC even further. Consider lowering damage to +2

The 2011 Rare Brawler’s Mug grants +2 melee damage, is usable by Elf/Wizards, and doesn't lock the Melee offhand (offhand Melee?) slot. URs should be more powerful than a Rare -- especially a Rare from over a decade ago!

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

OrionW wrote: Charm of Critical Taunts
I like this change, but it is duplicative of Kilgor's and Viv's so I would recommend either a larger enhanced range or a different ability.

I initially misread it that way too, but this doesn't grant expanded Crit range; it expands the 5th level Power that causes natural 20s to deal 3× damage.

Thanks for pointing that out and I misread it for sure. In that case it is a nice token, if only for 5th level players which I think is fine (and maybe 4th after the new class cards).

Death Knight Helm

Can barbarian be pulled off of this? Templar Set got obsoleted by relic/legendary Redoubt. Legendary Redoubt is only situationally better than DK URs. At least try to give fighters, cleric, and paladin - low damage output classes - something barbarian can't just run as well.

Picc's Grindstone

Shouldn't this have something to do with True Grind? This is just power inflation at no cost besides money. Grind is about surviving. Grind is when saves matter more as failure of saves is harsher. If going to have some slotless token, I would have this be a 1/game free reroll when save roll is a 1. That's still power inflation for every single build. Questor's has largely been obsoleted by how powerful charms are now, so folks who don't want to fail an important save can get the ability back.

Shield of Guarding

This is overengineered. It's not going to matter if paladin also gets +4 to AC. If a paladin runs two different shields, does it matter which offhand paladin runs this in to get the effect?

+2 Rod of Focus:
Average damage 6 is higher than the 2015 UR +2 Staff of Focus (5.5). Short of two-handed muscle Elf/Wizard shenanigans, the Rod is strictly better; but this is reasonable as the Staff is close to a decade old.
Damage is lower than the 2016 UR +2 Baton of Focus (6.5), but is reasonable as the Rod has better class access.

Picc's Grindstone:
Huh, didn't notice this become (slotless) until I saw other forumites mention it. I liked it better as a reusable Runestone, but will defer to its namesake on what this should be.

Shield of Guarding:
Is this choice made in coaching? Or does the Paladin call for their AC to be dropped (and the party card edited) after actually getting damaged (not simply hit) for the first time while Guarding? Is the ability so powerful that Paladins need their AC reduced to choose it?
Given it uses similar wording to the 2022 Uncommon Lenses of Guarding , I presume the once per game ability can only be used on redirected hits, not any Melee hit while Guard is active.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: [

Impy wrote: Thor's Mug of Melee: I think this is probably too powerful. If we make AC matter more in game design it may be neat choice so all the damage gremlins (myself included) have to think twice before nerfing our AC even further. Consider lowering damage to +2

The 2011 Rare Brawler’s Mug grants +2 melee damage, is usable by Elf/Wizards, and doesn't lock the Melee offhand (offhand Melee?) slot. URs should be more powerful than a Rare -- especially a Rare from over a decade ago!

The problem I see with the mug is the often repeated problem of “everyone else gets the fighter thing with less AC the next year”.

In this case, it’s the death knight shield with no AC and more damage instead of strength. My gut says that builds that can both take the DK shield just join everyone else taking the mug - meaning the damage is probably too high.

That said , you are 100% correct that a UR should be better than a rare. Perhaps this mug could allow drinking as an instant action. Or 1/game drink potion without tuning in, or some other power that provides a choice for people who bought DK shield this year, while giving something interesting to everyone currently using the old rare brawlers mug.

Endgame wrote:

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: [

Impy wrote: Thor's Mug of Melee: I think this is probably too powerful. If we make AC matter more in game design it may be neat choice so all the damage gremlins (myself included) have to think twice before nerfing our AC even further. Consider lowering damage to +2

The 2011 Rare Brawler’s Mug grants +2 melee damage, is usable by Elf/Wizards, and doesn't lock the Melee offhand (offhand Melee?) slot. URs should be more powerful than a Rare -- especially a Rare from over a decade ago!

The problem I see with the mug is the often repeated problem of “everyone else gets the fighter thing with less AC the next year”.

In this case, it’s the death knight shield with no AC and more damage instead of strength. My gut says that builds that can both take the DK shield just join everyone else taking the mug - meaning the damage is probably too high.

That said , you are 100% correct that a UR should be better than a rare. Perhaps this mug could allow drinking as an instant action. Or 1/game drink potion without tuning in, or some other power that provides a choice for people who bought DK shield this year, while giving something interesting to everyone currently using the old rare brawlers mug.

+1 to a use a potion without turning it in would be fun!

Death Knight shield offers the set bonus and AC, so the Mug seems fine in comparison. There are also lack of items for melee classes not on the Death Knight helm, so this seems like an important item this year that shouldn’t be altered too much.

I think it is important that we have attractive PYPs for everyone.

Endgame wrote: That said , you are 100% correct that a UR should be better than a rare. Perhaps this mug could allow drinking as an instant action. Or 1/game drink potion without tuning in, or some other power that provides a choice for people who bought DK shield this year, while giving something interesting to everyone currently using the old rare brawlers mug.

Oooo, could be fun, bringing back in one of the early concepts for this token.

To be clear, I'm not saying it must have higher numbers than the old token, just that it needs to offer something more.