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TOPIC: 2025 Ultra Rare Tokens

2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 2 months 4 weeks ago #85

Jeff Martin wrote: Wow...thanks all for the continuing excellent feedback. We should be posting another round very soon. Some changes coming:

Runestone Fitting Base is in! <=but it is back to Rares only
New Shield of Guarding effect = semi Shadowcloak power
Nightshade's Gloves = Big news that will cost me dearly! This token is getting reduced in power because we are going to nerf how the Rogue Neck item and Assassin Crossbow synergize -- stating in 2025. No change until then so y'all can enjoy the crazy damage for another 10 months.
+2 Rod of Focus got its damage cut a bit
DF Taunt Charm = now extends the Enhanced Crit range to "19-20" during round Taunt is activated
Coin of Temptation wording clarified (no killing the Rogue so you can use one! -- I am looking at you Bard)
Bead of Celecia = added 1/game

The Charm of Valkyrie's Kiss is going to replace the Death Knight Shirt as a volunteer token.


Is the change for Rogues because of the whole lot of dex damage increase that is on the way from the new possible rule changes around dex adding to range damage? If so it kind of makes sense.

Do you have and ETA on when you think those changes will be formalized? I am very curious to see where you go there, as it will have a large impact on the game and what tokens I might be looking to collect. :cheer:
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 2 months 4 weeks ago #86

Azzy wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Nightshade's Gloves = Big news that will cost me dearly! This token is getting reduced in power because we are going to nerf how the Rogue Neck item and Assassin Crossbow synergize -- stating in 2025. No change until then so y'all can enjoy the crazy damage for another 10 months.

I feel like the best option is also the simplest: just change the section in the PHB that talks about stacking damage multipliers into something along the lines of "if you have multiple damage multipliers, only the highest one applies".


The interaction between +2 Assassins' Crossbow and Raphael's Sneaky Necklace that is problematic is not related to stacking damage multipliers.

The problem is Rogues can get: 3x damage on a slid 17+, twice per room

With the combination of: +2 Assassin's Crossbow, Raphael's Sneaky Necklace, one of the two UR eye slot items that lets Rogues make ranged sneak attacks, and a Bead or Bracers of Guided Strike.

This makes high end ranged rogue builds notably better than the melee rogue build at pumping out damage; while also enjoying higher AC and reflex saves, and not dealing with retaliation damage.

This ranged combo depends on a single 2015 UR (+2 Assassin's Crossbow). When +2 Assassin's Crossbow was created:

a. There was no realistic way for Rogues to get an expanded crit range on the +2 Assassins Crossbow* - so a natural 20 was required for triple damage

b. There was no universal way to bypass crit immunity - only conditional crit immunity bypassers existed that worked for one monster type at a time (e.g. constructs, or plants, or elementals)

c. There was no way to sneak attack the same monster twice in a room

So an effect that was designed to trigger: On a slid 20; Once per room; Conditional on the monster being vulnerable to critical hits.

Is nowadays triggering: On a 17+; twice per room; against all monsters.

This in turn creates a strong desire to do one of two things:

1. Make a ranged weapon that deals triple damage on crits available to rogues every few years, so Rogues can pursue this playstyle without tracking down a single 2015 UR.

2. Bring melee Rogues up to par with ranged ones by offering them a way to do triple damage on their 17+ sneak attack crits from Raphael's Sneaky Necklace.

I think above Jeff is proposing a third way of resolving this situation:

c. Restrict the triple damage on crits from +2 Assassin's Crossbow to be more in line with the original design intent (some or all of: requiring a slid 20, once per room, limited to certain monster types).

Doing that would take pressure of both the desire to reprint or duplicate the triple crit function of the +2 Assassins Crossbow, and also the desire to bring triple damage crits to melee Rogues.

* Theoretically a Rogue in 2015 could have used a 2010 Uncommon Keen Arrow on each attack to get 19+ crits, or gotten a caster to use a rare 2003-2008 Scroll Keen Edge to given them 19+ crits for a room.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 2 months 4 weeks ago #87

Given the time, this is probably going to miss this round of review, but just in case it makes it:

Druegar wrote: Thor's Mug of Melee
Q: While inside the adventure, can I swap this out for a different off-hand melee item?
A: No. It is locked into the melee off-hand slot for the entire adventure. You may swap it out while making a ranged attack, but that's it.

Can you put this on the token itself, using wording like the 2022 UR +2 Mug of Battle , 2022 Rare Captain’s Cup , 2022 CURSED Mirror of Pride , or 2018 Uncommon Tankard of Health ?
(Related: uggh, why do two say "off-hand Melee slot", and the other two say "Melee off-hand slot"? Now it's going to bother me (and you! Sorry, not sorry) for a while.)
Cleric main / Druid secondary
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 2 months 4 weeks ago #88

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: Given the time, this is probably going to miss this round of review, but just in case it makes it:

Druegar wrote: Thor's Mug of Melee
Q: While inside the adventure, can I swap this out for a different off-hand melee item?
A: No. It is locked into the melee off-hand slot for the entire adventure. You may swap it out while making a ranged attack, but that's it.

Can you put this on the token itself, using wording like the 2022 UR +2 Mug of Battle , 2022 Rare Captain’s Cup , 2022 CURSED Mirror of Pride , or 2018 Uncommon Tankard of Health ?
(Related: uggh, why do two say "off-hand Melee slot", and the other two say "Melee off-hand slot"? Now it's going to bother me (and you! Sorry, not sorry) for a while.)


Is there a case where you can change your melee off-hand slot to another melee off-hand slot? I thought the only slots not locked were melee / ranged mainhand?
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 2 months 4 weeks ago #89

Endgame wrote: Is there a case where you can change your melee off-hand slot to another melee off-hand slot? I thought the only slots not locked were melee / ranged mainhand?


As per the PHB:

[h]andheld items may be swapped during the adventure. “Hand-held” refers to things you would hold in your hand like weapons, wands, shields, and other offhand items.

Cleric main / Druid secondary
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 2 months 4 weeks ago #90

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Matthew Hayward wrote: The interaction between +2 Assassins' Crossbow and Raphael's Sneaky Necklace that is problematic is not related to stacking damage multipliers.

The problem is Rogues can get: 3x damage on a slid 17+, twice per room


I generally agree with your analysis, I just want to add I think some of the complication we're dealing with is that we're also balancing for two very different games between VTD and In-person TD.

In VTD in your normal three turn combat, this combo results in on average, a 9.46% damage buff for the entire dungeon. Formula ((1+(3*.2))/(1+(2*.2)))*2/3

Versus in person where it is not unreasonable for someone to crit 80-100% of the time on a 17-20 slide. Which can result in 33% damage boost for the entire dungeon. Formula: ((1+(3*1))/(1+(2*1)))*2/3

I think this is a geniunely complicated problem to solve and if we're trying to balance class damage we shouldn't look at this alone. A effective comparison should be done between all classes and there should be a known goal of how each class should stack up against each other in terms of damage, healing and defense/support. (Maybe other metrics too, I am just generalizing here). And if TD wants to support alternative builds this gets much more complicated because then we need to balance ranged rogue vs melee rogue vs [new rogue type here if it were ever to exist] in addition to class to class. Without that we're kinda balancing blind and this will likely just cause unneeded discontent amongst players.

Again, not saying it shouldn't be done but we should tackle all the classes and these comparisons at once and do this with known goal in mind.

Edit: Formula Breakdown:
((1+(ASN_CRIT_MULT*CRIT_CHANCE))/(1+(NORM_CRIT_MULT*CRIT_CHANCE)))*(SNEAK_ATTACKS/TURNS_OF_COMBAT_PER_ROOM)
Last edit: by Impy.
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2025 Ultra Rare Tokens 2 months 4 weeks ago #91

Endgame wrote:

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: Given the time, this is probably going to miss this round of review, but just in case it makes it:

Druegar wrote: Thor's Mug of Melee
Q: While inside the adventure, can I swap this out for a different off-hand melee item?
A: No. It is locked into the melee off-hand slot for the entire adventure. You may swap it out while making a ranged attack, but that's it.

Can you put this on the token itself, using wording like the 2022 UR +2 Mug of Battle , 2022 Rare Captain’s Cup , 2022 CURSED Mirror of Pride , or 2018 Uncommon Tankard of Health ?
(Related: uggh, why do two say "off-hand Melee slot", and the other two say "Melee off-hand slot"? Now it's going to bother me (and you! Sorry, not sorry) for a while.)


Is there a case where you can change your melee off-hand slot to another melee off-hand slot? I thought the only slots not locked were melee / ranged mainhand?


Your offhand is not (in general) locked - although:

a. Some offhand items specify they must be equipped the whole adventure
b. All handheld items held during coaching that contribute to a set bonus you are under (which many offhand items do) must remain equipped in their respective mode (melee or ranged)

The general rules for this are in the PHB on page 10:

"All worn items (equipped tokens) must be worn by your character for the entire adventure and cannot be swapped out for different pieces. However, hand-held items may be swapped during the adventure. 'Hand-held' refers to things you would hold in your hand like weapons, wands, shields, and other off-hand items."
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