TOPIC: 2025 Rare Tokens

Rare

Trinket of Bearform

If you only get one trinket per game, doing a small amount more of damage per room feels kind of lame. I would prefer it has a small ability as well and uses the Trollform damage wheel.

Please drop the damage wheel of the Trinket down to where it could lose the 1/game restriction, or include in the set less powerful Trinkets / Polymorph Potions that could be used in the other games. I strongly think new players should have the option of developing a Combat Polymorph Build, and I don't think they will do that if it is limited to one room per game.

Can we please just remove the trinket from this year. I would rather go one year without a new polymorph than have "1 trinket use per game" printed on a token.

I REALLY don't think limiting trinkets is the answer. If you want to force druids to be more jack-of-all-trades, this does not do that. For those of us with Iktomis, we just use it and keep on with our polymorph builds. New players who only have trinkets will not be able to play a dedicated polymorph build and will quickly realize that it isn't worth dedicating slots to improve a single combat...and if they don't dedicate slots to it, they will miss their attacks anyway.

If you want druids to be able to switch between styles but not be as powerful, I think the best idea is to change FOCUS to add +to-hit while polymorphed instead of +damage while polymorph.

Amulet of the Norns:
How does this interact with the Arcane Set, if your very first Spell of the game is a 1st level Spell?

Ioun Stone Jasper Cube:
Can this be made of Sunstone instead, to match the proposed Common IS Sunstone Crystal and Uncommon IS Sunstone Orb?

Monk Bracers:
The damage bonus matches that of the 2020 Relic Necklace of the Spirit Drake . It needs to be toned a lot.
Alternatively, print this as a Monk-exclusive Bracer weapon with a weapon wheel of 5-6-7-8-9-10. That looks a bit high now, doesn't it? Except, as written, it's actually two of those, in one token, while also increasing AC by 1.

Scroll Sif's Shout:
This also is available to Cleric and Druid, but the proposed Uncommon Scroll Ymir's Cough is restricted to just Bard and Wizards. Is this discrepancy intended?

Trinket of Bearform:
A slotless token that changes your average damage to 9 as an Instant Action feels too high. For comparison, the highest weapon damage, and the highest weapon damage available to Druid is:
+1 Sea Raider Spear (6.6); +1 Sea Raider Battle Club (5.375).
Sea Raider Great Axe (5.6); Sea Raider Battle Club (4.375)
Sea Raider Axe (4.625); Sea Raider War Club (4.5).
That means, this is a slotless token that, as an Instant Action, increases your damage by ~3.5-4.5, depending on your base weapon. In comparison, a Barbarian can Rage to increase damage by 4, but as a Free Action. Does it make sense to give a Slotless that does the same thing to the jack-of-all-trades?
At this point, I'd rather just go back to Polymorph Potions until class card redesign is complete, and all of us get a clearer picture as to how the new Polymorphing Druid will look. We cannot begin balance without knowing. If necessary, issue an erratum on Trollform (like you did with chargeless wands) to have that be turned in like a Potion to clear the board, then start designing shiny Baubles instead.

I looked over these for common errors (e.g. wrong transmute category, missing hand icons, etc.), and didn't spot any.

+1 Sea Raider Battle Club: damage wheel looks substandard (< 5.5 average damage for a rare "d8" weapon)

Potion Volva's Ale: Why does this say "may not drink more than 1 per room per person." I'm not sure what the "per person" part is getting at. The common and uncommon versions say "may drink only 1 per room."

I guess the rare is trying to clarify that the limit is per-person, not per-party - however I don't feel like this needs to be said.

Shirt of Humble Luck: Given how this shirt works with only C/UC/R tokens now, it would be a very interesting token to itself be a transmute.

Currently, this token might discourage people off from making or getting low level transmutes, because they don't want to lose their Shirt of Humble Luck +3 saves effect.

What if the Shirt of Humble Luck itself could be transmuted, to avoid this disincentive. Could this transmute to an exalted (4 point) shirt that grants an unconditional +3 to saves?

Tyr's Ring of Sacred Wrath: I'm starting to worry this gives Druids and Clerics too much flexibility at the low level and steps on Wizard toes.

If you are in a token-10 pack situation where you'd only have one rare and you have this token, then healing and damage spells look like this (assume all skill checks pass).

The quick summary, is that at the token-10 pack level this token makes Druids better damage dealer than Elf Wizard.

Potential changes:
* Tyr's Ring could require an AC-15 slide to do damage
* Tyr's Ring could be 4 or 5 points of damage instead of 6
* Tyr's Ring could be limited to 1/room

Details:

Cleric:
Healing: 5 healing spells that heal for 36 hp
Damage - slide: 1 slide spell that deals 8 pts
Flex: 3 spells that are either 8 point heals or 6 points of damage

Druid:
Healing: 4 healing spells that heal for 19 hp
Damage: 5 damage spells that deal 61 pts
Flex: 2 spells that are either 8 point heals or 6 points of damage
Flex: Spell surge, either 16 points healing or 14 points damage

Elf Wizard:
Damage: 8 spells that do 63 pts
Damage (slide): 1 spell that deals 18 pts

Wizard:
Damage: 7 spells that do 52 pts
Damage (All monsters): 1 spell that does 9 pts to all
Damage (slide): 2 spells that do 36 pts

A druid with this ring that uses spell surge on their best damage spell will:
--> Deal 87 points of spell damage
--> Over 7 standard, and one free action

Whereas a Elf Wizard would:
--> Deal 85 points of spell damage (2 fewer)
--> Over 9 standard actions (more actions)
--> And need to hit one slide to do so

Tyr's Ring of Sacred Wrath: I'm starting to worry this gives Druids and Clerics too much flexibility at the low level and steps on Wizard toes.

If you are in a token-10 pack situation where you'd only have one rare and you have this token, then healing and damage spells look like this (assume all skill checks pass).

The quick summary, is that at the token-10 pack level this token makes Druids better damage dealer than Elf Wizard

I partially disagree with this analysis because it seems you didn’t give the wizards a rare token for comparison. They could use an Amulet of the Norns for an additional Missile Spell. There isn’t really another option to increase their damage at rare besides scrolls, but they do also get Amulet of Freyja at UC to increase all spells by 1.

Also as we get away from the base level of classes, this token doesn’t scale. If the proposed int/wis changes go through next year the math would already be thrown off.

I think it’s a solid token as is.

I'm confused as to how current version of Fang of Fenrir is still considered okay.

So, monster has one melee attack. Get a 20 out of one of nine possible classes, ranger can slide two. Monster does nothing for rest of combat.

Monster has more than one melee attack. Which one gets removed? The knock everyone over but do no damage attack or the only damaging attack for a monster we've had before? The claw or the bite with swallow possibility of another monster?

Monster has some control attack and a single melee attack that does damage. Monster can't hurt anyone. Could also be other way around, too, where some monster might be able to hurt one or more party members but loses a melee ability that would make it harder for it to get defeated.

The game has various conditions that don't get used or don't get used much. I considered Dazed, but that's overpowered unless this token can't create more than one Dazed in a combat. I'd go with Shaken, I guess, though inflicting Poisoned or Diseased on a monster is more modern.

Removing an attack every round still seems way out of proportion to a rare to me. Even if had to get max damage result, still comes across as too swingy. Now, a counterargument is that an UR in the game usable by 11 classes currently can Stun a monster every round just by getting 20's every round, and that token doesn't see a ton of play IME.

I suppose if the game assumes only a few rounds of combat, it doesn't matter, and, if combat would go more than that, having some monsters' abilities to kill classes being neutered is also okay from a play experience. Though, I'd expect this sort of combat effect to involve either transmuting to like a 4* or UR+.

Ian Lee wrote: I'm confused as to how current version of Fang of Fenrir is still considered okay.

So, monster has one melee attack. Get a 20 out of one of nine possible classes, ranger can slide two. Monster does nothing for rest of combat.

Monster has more than one melee attack. Which one gets removed? The knock everyone over but do no damage attack or the only damaging attack for a monster we've had before? The claw or the bite with swallow possibility of another monster?

Monster has some control attack and a single melee attack that does damage. Monster can't hurt anyone. Could also be other way around, too, where some monster might be able to hurt one or more party members but loses a melee ability that would make it harder for it to get defeated.

The game has various conditions that don't get used or don't get used much. I considered Dazed, but that's overpowered unless this token can't create more than one Dazed in a combat. I'd go with Shaken, I guess, though inflicting Poisoned or Diseased on a monster is more modern.

Removing an attack every round still seems way out of proportion to a rare to me. Even if had to get max damage result, still comes across as too swingy. Now, a counterargument is that an UR in the game usable by 11 classes currently can Stun a monster every round just by getting 20's every round, and that token doesn't see a ton of play IME.

I suppose if the game assumes only a few rounds of combat, it doesn't matter, and, if combat would go more than that, having some monsters' abilities to kill classes being neutered is also okay from a play experience. Though, I'd expect this sort of combat effect to involve either transmuting to like a 4* or UR+.

I agree, having a Rare with the ability of shutting down a 1 attack/turn monster for the rest of combat seems pretty broken, even permanently removing one combat per round for a multi-attack monster seems too much. Maybe it just causes the monster to lose one attack on it's next turn?

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:
Monk Bracers:
The damage bonus matches that of the 2020 Relic Necklace of the Spirit Drake . It needs to be toned a lot.
Alternatively, print this as a Monk-exclusive Bracer weapon with a weapon wheel of 5-6-7-8-9-10. That looks a bit high now, doesn't it? Except, as written, it's actually two of those, in one token, while also increasing AC by 1.

This token is fine, are you missing the drawback that you can't use it with weapons?

Monks can already use numerous rare bracers that give +2 to melee damage unconditionally (like Bracers of Fire).

This gives +4 to melee damage, but removes the ability to use weapons, and grants +1 to AC.

So you gain +2 to damage and +1 to AC relative to Bracers of Fire, but you lose the to-hit bonus of your weapon and whatever the improved damage wheel of the weapon is relative to the monk empty pucks.

Compare with 2014 bracer of the Asp which provides Monks with average of 7.5 damage and no to-hit bonus. This token is basically the exact same token, but it doesn't deal poison damage and has +1 to AC.

BasicBraining wrote:

Tyr's Ring of Sacred Wrath: I'm starting to worry this gives Druids and Clerics too much flexibility at the low level and steps on Wizard toes.

If you are in a token-10 pack situation where you'd only have one rare and you have this token, then healing and damage spells look like this (assume all skill checks pass).

The quick summary, is that at the token-10 pack level this token makes Druids better damage dealer than Elf Wizard

I partially disagree with this analysis because it seems you didn’t give the wizards a rare token for comparison. They could use an Amulet of the Norns for an additional Missile Spell. There isn’t really another option to increase their damage at rare besides scrolls, but they do also get Amulet of Freyja at UC to increase all spells by 1.

Fair enough, but part of what matters here is action economy - the Druid in this scenario is out-damaging the Elf Wizard and has 2 free rounds of combat to try to do damage some other way (scroll, wand, trinket, melee or ranged attack).

If we add in another 11 damage to the Elf Wizard with the necklace, then the comparison becomes:

Druid deals 87 points of spell damage over 7 rounds
Elf Wizard deals 96 points of spell damage over 10 rounds (requiring a spell slide to hit)

That means the druid only needs to deal 9 points of damage over 3 additional rounds of combat to catch up again.

Also, the druid in this scenario still has numerous healing spells to work with, whereas the Elf Wizard doesn't.

This is not "jack of all trades." This is "comparable to, and arguably better than Elf Wizards at damage spells, while still having healing spells to spend."

Also as we get away from the base level of classes, this token doesn’t scale. If the proposed int/wis changes go through next year the math would already be thrown off.

I agree - but I'm concerned here with the impact of this token at token-10 pack levels, where the majority of players - and crucially the new players - play.

It's not good for a run of 10 new players playing TD for the first time that the Druid player out-damages the Elf Wizard player, and also has 4 healing spells to go around, and also has more HP, and also has better AC and torso slot items, and also has better saves. Why is anyone playing Elf Wizard again?

This token isn't going to see play in top end builds - there is no issue caused by this token in top end builds - or even in builds where there is as much as, say, +5 to focus.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

BasicBraining wrote:

Tyr's Ring of Sacred Wrath: I'm starting to worry this gives Druids and Clerics too much flexibility at the low level and steps on Wizard toes.

If you are in a token-10 pack situation where you'd only have one rare and you have this token, then healing and damage spells look like this (assume all skill checks pass).

The quick summary, is that at the token-10 pack level this token makes Druids better damage dealer than Elf Wizard

I partially disagree with this analysis because it seems you didn’t give the wizards a rare token for comparison. They could use an Amulet of the Norns for an additional Missile Spell. There isn’t really another option to increase their damage at rare besides scrolls, but they do also get Amulet of Freyja at UC to increase all spells by 1.

Fair enough, but part of what matters here is action economy - the Druid in this scenario is out-damaging the Elf Wizard and has 2 free rounds of combat to try to do damage some other way (scroll, wand, trinket, melee or ranged attack).

If we add in another 11 damage to the Elf Wizard with the necklace, then the comparison becomes:

Druid deals 87 points of spell damage over 7 rounds
Elf Wizard deals 96 points of spell damage over 10 rounds (requiring a spell slide to hit)

That means the druid only needs to deal 9 points of damage over 3 additional rounds of combat to catch up again.

Also, the druid in this scenario still has numerous healing spells to work with, whereas the Elf Wizard doesn't.

This is not "jack of all trades." This is "comparable to, and arguably better than Elf Wizards at damage spells, while still having healing spells to spend."

Also as we get away from the base level of classes, this token doesn’t scale. If the proposed int/wis changes go through next year the math would already be thrown off.

I agree - but I'm concerned here with the impact of this token at token-10 pack levels, where the majority of players - and crucially the new players - play.

It's not good for a run of 10 new players playing TD for the first time that the Druid player out-damages the Elf Wizard player, and also has 4 healing spells to go around, and also has more HP, and also has better AC and torso slot items, and also has better saves. Why is anyone playing Elf Wizard again?

This token isn't going to see play in top end builds - there is no issue caused by this token in top end builds - or even in builds where there is as much as, say, +5 to focus.

At low levels I think the classes could use more balance; with that said, I think what the low level wizard needs is more abilities to hit multiple enemies at the same time. If I was going to tweak the class cards I would add a sonic burst (low level fireball) to give them something other classes don't have. I would also give them more hit points.

This definitely doesn't feel like a druid problem... it feels more like a level 4 wizard problem with just 1 ten pack. Wizards need too many tokens to get to a viable strength for normal difficulty.