TOPIC: 2025 Ultra Rare Tokens

Bead Necklace: For consistency with wording on other expanders, is there room to fit "3 additional" rather than "3 more"

Belt of the Aesir: This is interesting, but I'm not sure who it's for. I think there are rares that are more appealing in almost any build (Belt of the Brave for melee for +2/+2, Belt of the Leapord for ranged/spell with +2 dex and +1 to damage). Perhaps just scale up Belt of the Leopard to UR with +3 DEX and +2 to ranged damage?

Coin of Temptation: What happens when multiple players want to use Coin of Temptation in one room?

Earcuff of the Cabal: Should this say: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk & Wizards. (note - I've added Monk to the list from prior Cabal set items since they can use Mystic Staves). I don't think Dwarf Fighters, for instance, should be able to wear this to give synergy bonuses to casters.

Holy Symbol of Selenwa: Can clerics use this in every room, whether undead are present or not, to heal the party 3? Presumably not, but based on the token it's hard to see why they can't.

Nightshade's Grim Gloves: This is doing too much. Sneak attacks deal 3x damage on 19+ already feels strong for a hand slot UR to me (compare with +2 to hit and damage from other options). It doesn't need the +2 to hit on top of that - besides - conditional to-hit bonuses that don't go on the stat card require DM reminders mid combat.

This token also gives rise to many questions:
* Does this cause sneak attacks to crit on a 19? Or does it deal triple damage but it's not a critical hit?
* What happens if the monster is immune to critical hits? (Since the token doesn't talk about crits, presumably it still takes 3x damage)
* Is the sneak attack bonus 3x-ed as well?

Picc's Norn Runestone: Maybe instead of making this a runestone itself, make it augment the power of a redeemed runestone? "Receive an additional +1 to hit in melee and ranged if you redeem any runestones." Otherwise this can't be used with an Eldritch runestone, and discourages use of lower rarity runestones because this is usually better.

Thor's Mug of Melee: I think the bonus here is too big - it's going to make single handed melee builds very close to, or better than, two handed melee builds at dealing damage. It immediately undercuts last years transmutes gloves. Consider a Paladin who is choosing between:

Option one: One UR and one Legendary:
UR Gloves of the Gladiator, Legendary Avernons +5 Deathcleaver: +5 to hit, 17.83 average damage

Option two: Three URs:
UR Death Knight Gloves, UR +2 Savage Sword, UR Thor's Mug of Melee: +4 to hit, 19.5 average damage

Iross wrote: Nightshade's Grim Gloves is definitely a much more appealing token than the previous version, which it needs to be if it's remaining in the hand slot. It might be a bit too good, since it now offers both expanded 3x crit range and the static bonus to hit with Sneak Attacks, but I'm very undecided since it's melee-only, occupies a very important slot, and unlike other tokens is completely blank once your Sneak Attack(s) are used up. The expanded crit range doesn't do anything for players who own the Relic or Legendary necklace either, and melee builds could use a token like this to make them a better build option. I think I like this token more than a reprint of Assassin's Crossbow as it supports a very different build option as a viable alternative.

I feel like its in the right place, remember it also blocks gloves which usually give +2 or more hit/damage so really the +2 with sneak is just giving that back. Personally I would wear these to put a Nightshade's short sword on par with an assassins crossbow + other UR gloves. On the other "hand" I would use different gloves with an assassins crossbow.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Picc's Norn Runestone: Maybe instead of making this a runestone itself, make it augment the power of a redeemed runestone?

Personally, I'm ok with a choice between an UR and Eldritch Runestone.
Re: rare stones, Fitting Base?

Picc wrote:

Iross wrote: Nightshade's Grim Gloves is definitely a much more appealing token than the previous version, which it needs to be if it's remaining in the hand slot. It might be a bit too good, since it now offers both expanded 3x crit range and the static bonus to hit with Sneak Attacks, but I'm very undecided since it's melee-only, occupies a very important slot, and unlike other tokens is completely blank once your Sneak Attack(s) are used up. The expanded crit range doesn't do anything for players who own the Relic or Legendary necklace either, and melee builds could use a token like this to make them a better build option. I think I like this token more than a reprint of Assassin's Crossbow as it supports a very different build option as a viable alternative.

I feel like its in the right place, remember it also blocks gloves which usually give +2 or more hit/damage so really the +2 with sneak is just giving that back. Personally I would wear these to put a Nightshade's short sword on par with an assassins crossbow + other UR gloves. On the other "hand" I would use different gloves with an assassins crossbow.

Having had some time to think about it, I think I agree with you. In its current form, I would consider using this token instead of Death Knight Gauntlets. If it only triggered on a 20, or if it didn't have the SA hit bonus, I'd definitely just stick with the Death Knight Gauntlets as the better choice, even though they are not class specific.

Endgame wrote: Charm of Valkyrie's Kiss
If below zero, can you still activate Mage Powers for spells?

No. This is black letter rules.

"Each MP/AMP used requires the wizard to sacrifice 5 HP (in addition to the 25 HP sacrifice required by the MEC effect–if the wearer also chooses to invoke the MEC effect) before casting the modified Spell. The HP sacrifice is an Instant Action. E.g., using three MPs/AMPs on one Spell requires a single 15 HP sacrifice. Wizards may not die from MP/AMP usage as they currently must have at least one more hit point than the total hit points lost to the MP/AMP(s) used on a Spell. This HP sacrifice is a cost that must be paid before the modified Spell is cast. If the cost is not paid, the MP/AMP does not happen. I.e., you cannot mitigate the HP sacrifice. "

tokendb.com/token/ashennes-arch-mage-medallion/

Similar rulings apply to MeC.

You can't spend HP you don't have.

Nightshades grim gloves: can the +to-hit please apply to all attacks, not just sneak attack? Even if lowered to +1, it will be better to get it on to the party card instead of having to tell the DM every time you make a sneak attack.

Thors mug of melee: if ranger is allowed to use this, it should get a damage wheel.

Bead Necklace: consider 2/3/4 at the UR/Relic/Legendary tier

Coin of Temptation: if multiple wearer all want a go at the same box, who gets priority?

Holy Symbol of Selenwa: Selenwa -> Selinwa, given the spelling of Potion Selinwa’s Kiss . Presumably, the healing happens when you Turn Undead. Can you Turn Undead in a room that doesn't have a monster? Can you Turn Undead against a bony demonic outsider who is clearly not Undead how dare you (or any other non-Undead monster) in order to benefit from just the healing?

Ioun Stone Ruby Trilliant: Fire is not uncommon; and -10 is a lot of prevention. Will this influence future game design to have fewer enemies doing Fire? Will enemies that deal Fire damage now deal +7 over enemies that deal non-Fire, and cause heartache for healers who now have to scramble to cover for a party that doesn't have these? Will we start seeing Eldritch Fire from fire-based enemies?

My thoughts on some items:

Death Knight Helm: Is ok, we maybe have too many items with Ret damage recently though

IS Ruby Trilliant: I still feel like non-Darkrift DR should be like 5 at most. Just because Topaz Trilliant largely negates Darkrift damage doesn't mean we should trivialize all other elements too.

Picc's Norn Runestone: This seems cool, I like it ^^

Thor's Mug of Melee: Seems like too much of a damage boost for 1H weapons

IS Ruby Trilliant

Would it be possible to have a new stat that was damage prevention (works against all damage) and set this at a very low number. Further damage prevention would not stack with DR, so this could be a pathway to a much simpler stat that is easier to remember and account for when adjusting HPs in the dungeon. What ever the DM says just subtract the damage prevention.

Just throwing numbers agains the way, but maybe 1,2,4 damage prevention for the transmute path.

So since I was concerned about it being potentially overpowered, I've quickly thrown a BiS-level build together for Nightshade's Grim Gloves. If I spent more time on it, I could probably make something better, but in the meantime this one prioritises melee damage while keeping saves at 20 or higher, at the cost of low HP and AC.

Test Build

Melee hit bonus is +22 (+24 during Sneak Attack with the Gloves), damage bonus is +43.
Melee weapon is Nightshade's +2 Short Sword, which has 6-7 average damage depending on whether it is a Sneak Attack, and which has the Nightshade's ability for double Sneak Attack damage on a crit.

If a Sneak Attack does not crit, the average damage will be 70.
If a Sneak Attack crits and a 17-18 is slid, the average damage will be 140.
If a Sneak Attack crits and a 19-20 is slid, the average damage will be 210.

I was mainly concerned about what happens when combining the Nightshade's weapon ability and the 3x Crit ability, but based on the above, even if the best possible result is slid there's not much difference at all between the new Gloves and the Assassin's Crossbow, so in the end I think Nightshade's Grim Gloves are a really well designed token which will do a good job of narrowing the current gap between Rogue melee and ranged builds.

Iross wrote: I was mainly concerned about what happens when combining the Nightshade's weapon ability and the 3x Crit ability, but based on the above, even if the best possible result is slid there's not much difference at all between the new Gloves and the Assassin's Crossbow, so in the end I think Nightshade's Grim Gloves are a really well designed token which will do a good job of closing the current gap between Rogue melee and ranged builds.

This, of course, presumes that the Assassin's crossbow is OK. Some might argue that Rogue with Crossbow deals too much damage, so this is reinforcing a bad tread.

Bead Necklace: Copy paste time~
If you can give us direction on this I'd appreciate it. If this is the power level you want, that's fine just let us know so we can stop beating a dead horse. If you would like a balance analysis on it, please let me know. I will make a spread sheet for you so you can compare this to all the past class neck legendries.

As it is, 5 Beads is considerably better than most class neck legendries. (Statistically, it is less fun though). 1,2,3 is current competitive to them via ability score analysis.

Death Knight Helm: Agreeing with sentiment of maybe too many ret items recently. Perhaps move back to +3 STR? Its a balanced token but we've got a lot of ret damage this year, I think it may be good to see how that shakes out.

IS Ruby Trilliant: Copy paste time:
I genuinely have concerns about this really negatively affecting the health of the game. This isn't about power creep, its about healthy encounter design. As TD is putting itself in a position where elemental damage needs to be extremely high to present a challenge, effectively requiring all players to purchase this token to play at certain difficulty level, or TD may feel it needs to use "Eldritch Elemental" damage.

As someone who has volunteered on weekends where Eldritch Elemental damage was used, players were very very angry about it. I've heard from at least 2 DMs as well that they get incredibly negative feedback every time eldritch elemental damage occurs in a module.

Please consider replacing this token, or changing its effect. My suggestions are below:
Option 1:
Reduce [elemental type] damage by 50%, +1 Saves
Reduce [more elemental types] damage by 50%, +1 Saves
Reduce [even more elemental type] damage by 50%, +1 Saves
Option 2:(My preferred option) (Could be 1/combat instead of 1/adventure, you're call)
Reduce an instance of elemental damage by 10 1/adventure + 1 saves
Reduce an instance of elemental damage by 20 1/adventure, +2 saves
Reduce an instance of elemental damage to 0 1/adventure, + 3 saves

Reduce an instance of damage verbiage used so players still need to save against attack effects. To avoid this scenario change wording to "absorb an elemental damage attack" at legendary level.

If changed to 1/Combat, I suggest dropping save bonus to +1 at all levels.

Picc's Norn Runestone: Very cool!

Thor's Mug of Melee: Agree that this seems over tuned. Maybe just make it effect hammers? It is Thor's weapon after all (Still may need a damage nerf even then). I like where you're going with this idea though!

Nightshades: I am torn. I like the direction a lot. I don't like the multiple types of keen effects we have going on here, its confusing. Definitely restricting it to only sneak attacks is a great move. Makes rogue abilities matter more. In short, I'm fine with it balance wise but I don't like the muddy waters and how everything is giving keen these days.

Valkyrie's Kiss: I think this was more clear and balanced as a "melee only" effect. Also more flavorful

Bead of Celecia: I am still sad to see the change away from what we had round one. I accept that the first iteration was complicated but it was super cool. I think it have been fixed with adding a caveat that the base damage was fire damage for its bonus effect. Or a fire damage spell.

OrionW wrote: IS Ruby Trilliant

Would it be possible to have a new stat that was damage prevention (works against all damage) and set this at a very low number. Further damage prevention would not stack with DR, so this could be a pathway to a much simpler stat that is easier to remember and account for when adjusting HPs in the dungeon. What ever the DM says just subtract the damage prevention.

Just throwing numbers agains the way, but maybe 1,2,4 damage prevention for the transmute path.

Do you mean like - 5 dmg untyped at the UR lvl ?