TOPIC: 2025 Token FAQ (WIP)

AAckeret wrote: Since the Runestone Fitting Base has been updated on tokendb to say it works with R or UR Runestones......will it be possible to equip 3 of Picc's Grindstone (one in regular spot, and one more in each of the two possible Fitting Bases)?

Pretty sure you're not allowed to equip 2 of the same named token except as Monk or Ranger with weapons specifically.

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Pretty sure you're not allowed to equip 2 of the same named token except as Monk or Ranger with weapons specifically.

Runestones with Fitting Bases specifically break that rule. Since a UR non turning in Runestones is a new thing, thought it was worth asking, as a similar question from someone else got buried in the UR thread.

TIL Runestones break rules

Personally I kind of hope they are not duplicateable like that since they are permanent unlike the regular runestones that were all that existed when the rule was written.

Druegar wrote: Trinket Use
There is no limit on the number of trinkets you can bring into the dungeon with you nor with the number of times you can use a trinket per room. However, the one monster form per room rule is still in effect. You can go into and out of one particular form within any given room as many times as you like--assuming you have the resources to effect each change. E.g., if you have both Trinket of Trollform and Trinket of Bearform, you could hypothetically cycle between Troll form and your normal humanoid form dozens of times, but you could not cycle back and forth between Troll and Bear within a single room.

You can't be serious.

This completely devalues Iktomi's: you can de-Poly/re-Poly at the Rare level now to cast Spells, and equip Amulet of the Wild for +4 Polymorph damage to exceed the difference between Bearform (~9+4 vs ~11) or Trollform (~8+4 vs ~11). The only thing missing is DR, which is just one heal out of combat, or an Exalted potion with an Enhanced slotless if you have a spare Free Action.

Why the swing, from "Trinkets are Polymorph potions, but reusable", to "Trinkets are globally 1/game", to "Trinkets are just weapons with higher damage wheels"?

Why do Druids, the supposed jack-of-all-trades, need to have a Rare token with a higher average damage than most URs, very competitive against Relics, and only somewhat worse than a Legendary?

What even is balance?

Consider adding: Melee, Range and Spell to the DR listing.

Druegar wrote: Trilliant Ioun Stones
No character may equip more than one Ioun Stone with the word "Trilliant" in its name.

Is this still true? I thought this ruling had been abandoned when a flat 20 cap of DR was introduced.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

Druegar wrote: Trinket Use
There is no limit on the number of trinkets you can bring into the dungeon with you nor with the number of times you can use a trinket per room. However, the one monster form per room rule is still in effect. You can go into and out of one particular form within any given room as many times as you like--assuming you have the resources to effect each change. E.g., if you have both Trinket of Trollform and Trinket of Bearform, you could hypothetically cycle between Troll form and your normal humanoid form dozens of times, but you could not cycle back and forth between Troll and Bear within a single room.

You can't be serious.

This completely devalues Iktomi's: you can de-Poly/re-Poly at the Rare level now to cast Spells, and equip Amulet of the Wild for +4 Polymorph damage to exceed the difference between Bearform (~9+4 vs ~11) or Trollform (~8+4 vs ~11). The only thing missing is DR, which is just one heal out of combat, or an Exalted potion with an Enhanced slotless if you have a spare Free Action.

Why the swing, from "Trinkets are Polymorph potions, but reusable", to "Trinkets are globally 1/game", to "Trinkets are just weapons with higher damage wheels"?
...

Not just weapons with higher damage wheels.

They are effectively weapons with higher damage wheels:
* That benefit from all Polymorph damage bonuses
* Including +5 damage for 5th level Druids
* And crit 19+ for 5th level Druids
* And inherit the to hit bonus of any weapon you equip during coaching
* That can be swapped in and out of mainhand with an instant action, allowing attacks and spells to benefit from the focus bonus of a focus granting baton in the mainhand while using this not-weapon

A Level 5 druid with Trinket Bearform and Drue's +5 Baton of Focus has:

• +6 to hit (+5 from weapon, 13 STR)
• 20 average damage (Damage wheel, 13 STR, Drue's Polymorph bonus, innate Druid Polymorph bonus)
• Crits on 19+ (Innate Druid polymorph bonus)

A level 5 Barbarian with Avernon's +5 Deathcleaver has:

• +9 to hit (+5 from weapon, 19 STR)
• 20.83 damage (19 STR, +4 Barbarian two-handed bonus)

So, it seems the Druid trades +3 to hit in and +0.83 damage in melee for crit on 19+. This is a roughly fair trade, as UR neck slots offer your choice of: Crit on 19+, or +4 STR & +3 DEX.

A slotless, unlimited use, non-consumable, rare token should not enable Druids to be peers at melee combat with Barbarians.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Druegar wrote: Trilliant Ioun Stones
No character may equip more than one Ioun Stone with the word "Trilliant" in its name.

Is this still true? I thought this ruling had been abandoned when a flat 20 cap of DR was introduced.

I was under the same. The ruling of allowing one one item in a transmute path is still in effect and a great rule. However, when future Trillants come out that won’t have a Legendary form, they should be allowed to be used as the DR hard cap ensures that you can’t over stack DR and make it into a God mode where things are mutated into an Eldritch form of Sacred fire. I remember hearing of this modification from another player, and it was modified in order to bypass the normal DR for that damage type.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

Druegar wrote: Trinket Use
There is no limit on the number of trinkets you can bring into the dungeon with you nor with the number of times you can use a trinket per room. However, the one monster form per room rule is still in effect. You can go into and out of one particular form within any given room as many times as you like--assuming you have the resources to effect each change. E.g., if you have both Trinket of Trollform and Trinket of Bearform, you could hypothetically cycle between Troll form and your normal humanoid form dozens of times, but you could not cycle back and forth between Troll and Bear within a single room.

You can't be serious.

This completely devalues Iktomi's: you can de-Poly/re-Poly at the Rare level now to cast Spells, and equip Amulet of the Wild for +4 Polymorph damage to exceed the difference between Bearform (~9+4 vs ~11) or Trollform (~8+4 vs ~11). The only thing missing is DR, which is just one heal out of combat, or an Exalted potion with an Enhanced slotless if you have a spare Free Action.

Why the swing, from "Trinkets are Polymorph potions, but reusable", to "Trinkets are globally 1/game", to "Trinkets are just weapons with higher damage wheels"?
...

Not just weapons with higher damage wheels.

They are effectively weapons with higher damage wheels:
* That benefit from all Polymorph damage bonuses
* Including +5 damage for 5th level Druids
* And crit 19+ for 5th level Druids
* And inherit the to hit bonus of any weapon you equip during coaching
* That can be swapped in and out of mainhand with an instant action, rather than a free action; allowing Free actions to be retained for casting spells with Ring of Quick Blessing While retaining the spell damage bonus of whatever Focus boosting, non trinket weapon is held in the mainhand.

But Iktomi's exists for established players, so Trinkets will only be used by new(er) players who don't have tokens that increase Polymorph (but not Melee) damage; who don't have a way to reach 5th character level; who don't have mainhand weapon that has a to-hit bonus; who don't have a RoQB; who don't have any Focus. We need to care about them too!

... or so that argument went, from what I recall.

It's why I've been conveniently ignoring any such bonuses in all my arguments so far, and only discussing the base weapon wheel compared to other Rare tokens in this set. And without those bonuses you mentioned, Trinkets (even before this new ruling) are already stronger that other Rare weapons

Druegar wrote: Trinket Use
There is no limit on the number of trinkets you can bring into the dungeon with you nor with the number of times you can use a trinket per room. However, the one monster form per room rule is still in effect. You can go into and out of one particular form within any given room as many times as you like--assuming you have the resources to effect each change. E.g., if you have both Trinket of Trollform and Trinket of Bearform, you could hypothetically cycle between Troll form and your normal humanoid form dozens of times, but you could not cycle back and forth between Troll and Bear within a single room.

With this ruling, I'm struggling to understand why anyone would use Iktomi's Shaper Necklace, other than for flavor or roleplay reasons.

The ability to polymorph as an instant action has always been a slotted, UR+ effect, and often required some additional sacrifice (see Coronet of the Arch-Druid, Shaman's Belt).

Moving the ability to polymorph as an instant action to a slotless, rare token dramatically undermines all existing Polymorph enabling UR+ tokens - making them essentially useless.

To see how badly this messes with things, consider a level 5 druid who wants their build to attack while polymorphed, and is considering what to use in their neck slot:

Option 1: Legendary Iktomi's Shaper Necklace. This option gives Polymorph stats of:

• +1 to hit
• Average damage of 17
• Crit on 19+

Option 2: Rare Trinket Bearform and UR Amulet of the Folkvanger. This option gives Polymorph stats of:

• +3 to hit
• Average damage of 16
• Crit on 19+

Option 2 is the better Polymorph combat stat line, +2 to hit hit is much more valuable than +1 to damage.

---

There are secondary effects and abilities to consider:

Option 1 gives:

Choice of elemental form, which gives -10 DR for one of the elemental damage types, and also forces your damage to be dealt of that type.

Can use Polymorph Potions as an Instant Action without turning them in. This is largely for roleplay fun - polymorph potions have worse combat stats than either Iktomi's or Trinket Bearform.

Option 2 gives:

Amulet of the Folkvanger's +4 STR & +3 DEX (which the Iktomi's player can't equip due to the neck slot being used), before any other tokens are considered, gives these additional affects not included in the polymorph stat line above:

+2 to AC
+2 to Reflex saves
+2 to ranged to-hit
+2 to non-polymorph melee to-hit
+2 to non-polymorph melee damage
+2 to thrown / mighty weapon damage

One might reasonably prefer either Iktomi's (option 1) or Trinket Bearform&Amulet of the Folkvanger (option 2)'s secondary effects.

It seems a wash to me.

There is now a cap on DR, meaning sooner or later the DR ability of Iktomi's is going to become irrelevant over time in top end builds as they achieve the DR cap in other ways.

The problem in my mind is Iktomi's; even without the trinket:

Option Alpha
Potion of the Sea Troll average damage 7.25
Charm Necklace+Charm of Winter+Charm of Summer+Arcane Charm +6 damage +2 Focus
Shirt of the Fae (allows drinking the potion as a free action and casting spells while polymorphed)
Total: 15.25

vs

Option Bravo
Iktomi's needs a lot of love. average damage of 11 and allows casting spells while polymorphed
Arcanum Shirt +2 focus and +1 damage/hit from Str, +1 AC, +1 Ref Save, +1 Fort Save, and +5 HP
Total: 14

If you don't care about spell casting without needing to revert to human form, there are other options that allow you to keep the Arcanum Shirt ( Captain’s Cup or Pouch of Tulz for example).

Above items picked because I have all of them and in the case of Potion Polymorph (Sea Troll) enough to run for a few years.

I use Iktomi's because it was the first legendary I crafted, and the occasional room lets me match damage types against vulnerabilities.

Iktomi's needs a lot of love.