TOPIC: FINAL TOKEN IMAGES for 2024! <== I really mean it kids!

Kusig wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Should the UR gloves go down to +4 damage?

Only going from +5 at UR to +6 at relic feels odd.

+5 makes sense as at the UR level it is a functional reprint of:

tokendb.com/token/gauntlets-of-linked-fury/

The Relic probably should have been +7, but not sure it is worth reopening this. Most folks making the Relic will eventually try and make the Legendary (is my guess).

I'm thinking what will happen is less people will make the relic since it’s such a minor upgrade and only a few will jump to Legendary. I would have liked to see it 5/7/9 to make a reasonably worthy progression.

Still sad it’s 2H only 😞 but I’ll take it as a blessing, no new legebdaries, or relics. I have the orb, Asp, and Chalice to make. Then the VTD components for the ring, 4 UR PYP, and hopefully the 2 Volunteer tokens… seems like a lot but no where near as 2/3 legendary s with the gloves, belt and bow ! Got off lucky 🍀

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote: Tell that to the new player who decides to play Barbarian.

If I was a newer players I'd be happy with +4 damage as a Barbarian. If not I'd buy a Gauntlets of Linked Fury. New players don't have to always have the best gear, but it's available if they want it. TD shouldn't change power level within class rarities much overtime, if players want more power they should go up a rarity level. If it stays at 5/6/7 your still going to get players chasing the Relic/Legendary.

Gauntlets of Linked Fury aren't available for sale at any of the token stores. So we can't really say it's available. Also the current upgrade path is 5/6/8 not 5/6/7. I would prefer to see going from UR to Relic as the entry into transmuting that hooks players in and then Legendary be the big bang at a higher cost.

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote: Tell that to the new player who decides to play Barbarian.

If I was a newer players I'd be happy with +4 damage as a Barbarian. If not I'd buy a Gauntlets of Linked Fury. New players don't have to always have the best gear, but it's available if they want it. TD shouldn't change power level within class rarities much overtime, if players want more power they should go up a rarity level. If it stays at 5/6/7 your still going to get players chasing the Relic/Legendary.

Gauntlets of Linked Fury aren't available for sale at any of the token stores. So we can't really say it's available. Also the current upgrade path is 5/6/8 not 5/6/7. I would prefer to see going from UR to Relic as the entry into transmuting that hooks players in and then Legendary be the big bang at a higher cost.

Gauntlets of linked fury were used in the Deathcleaver transmute chain, and they are BIS for gloves for 2H builds. This is why they are hard to find (if anyone cares).

I’m certain I could find a pair if I went looking, but many people finding many pairs would be a challenge. That said, expect to see a bunch listed over the next year as people try to sell them quick before the new transmute drops.

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote: Tell that to the new player who decides to play Barbarian.

If I was a newer players I'd be happy with +4 damage as a Barbarian. If not I'd buy a Gauntlets of Linked Fury. New players don't have to always have the best gear, but it's available if they want it. TD shouldn't change power level within class rarities much overtime, if players want more power they should go up a rarity level. If it stays at 5/6/7 your still going to get players chasing the Relic/Legendary.

Gauntlets of Linked Fury aren't available for sale at any of the token stores. So we can't really say it's available. Also the current upgrade path is 5/6/8 not 5/6/7. I would prefer to see going from UR to Relic as the entry into transmuting that hooks players in and then Legendary be the big bang at a higher cost.

I think there's two things here.

1) From a pure Token design standpoint a +4 to all damage at the UR level is really on par with Linked Fury that has the restriction, I don't see any way to argue against that.

2) From a player accessibility standpoint if Linked Fury is not available and the Gloves go to +4 your still giving all melee players (except Barbarian) the best damage gloves in the game at that level. Which is totally fine.

If the Gloves stay at 5 TD could always go 5/7/8. If these already haven't went to the printer maybe you'll get lucky and maybe Jeff bumps it to 5/7/9 as it seems he likes to stick with those break points.

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote: Tell that to the new player who decides to play Barbarian.

If I was a newer players I'd be happy with +4 damage as a Barbarian. If not I'd buy a Gauntlets of Linked Fury. New players don't have to always have the best gear, but it's available if they want it. TD shouldn't change power level within class rarities much overtime, if players want more power they should go up a rarity level. If it stays at 5/6/7 your still going to get players chasing the Relic/Legendary.

Gauntlets of Linked Fury aren't available for sale at any of the token stores. So we can't really say it's available. Also the current upgrade path is 5/6/8 not 5/6/7. I would prefer to see going from UR to Relic as the entry into transmuting that hooks players in and then Legendary be the big bang at a higher cost.

I think there's two things here.

1) From a pure Token design standpoint a +4 to all damage at the UR level is really on par with Linked Fury that has the restriction, I don't see any way to argue against that.

2) From a player accessibility standpoint if Linked Fury is not available and the Gloves go to +4 your still giving all melee players (except Barbarian) the best damage gloves in the game at that level. Which is totally fine.

If the Gloves stay at 5 TD could always go 5/7/8. If these already haven't went to the printer maybe you'll get lucky and maybe Jeff bumps it to 5/7/9 as it seems he likes to stick with those break points.

But they aren't +4 to all damage it's still restricted to 2 handed it just now includes another restricted scenario of 2 handed ranged as well which in most cases won't ever happen in the same run.

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote: Tell that to the new player who decides to play Barbarian.

If I was a newer players I'd be happy with +4 damage as a Barbarian. If not I'd buy a Gauntlets of Linked Fury. New players don't have to always have the best gear, but it's available if they want it. TD shouldn't change power level within class rarities much overtime, if players want more power they should go up a rarity level. If it stays at 5/6/7 your still going to get players chasing the Relic/Legendary.

Gauntlets of Linked Fury aren't available for sale at any of the token stores. So we can't really say it's available. Also the current upgrade path is 5/6/8 not 5/6/7. I would prefer to see going from UR to Relic as the entry into transmuting that hooks players in and then Legendary be the big bang at a higher cost.

I think there's two things here.

1) From a pure Token design standpoint a +4 to all damage at the UR level is really on par with Linked Fury that has the restriction, I don't see any way to argue against that.

2) From a player accessibility standpoint if Linked Fury is not available and the Gloves go to +4 your still giving all melee players (except Barbarian) the best damage gloves in the game at that level. Which is totally fine.

If the Gloves stay at 5 TD could always go 5/7/8. If these already haven't went to the printer maybe you'll get lucky and maybe Jeff bumps it to 5/7/9 as it seems he likes to stick with those break points.

But they aren't +4 to all damage it's still restricted to 2 handed it just now includes another restricted scenario of 2 handed ranged as well which in most cases won't ever happen in the same run.

Why do you think it won't ever happen in the same run? Some runs have "ranged only" combat rooms, and characters using two handed melee weapons normally will likely use a two handed ranged weapon in those rooms.

Mike Steele wrote:

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote: Tell that to the new player who decides to play Barbarian.

If I was a newer players I'd be happy with +4 damage as a Barbarian. If not I'd buy a Gauntlets of Linked Fury. New players don't have to always have the best gear, but it's available if they want it. TD shouldn't change power level within class rarities much overtime, if players want more power they should go up a rarity level. If it stays at 5/6/7 your still going to get players chasing the Relic/Legendary.

Gauntlets of Linked Fury aren't available for sale at any of the token stores. So we can't really say it's available. Also the current upgrade path is 5/6/8 not 5/6/7. I would prefer to see going from UR to Relic as the entry into transmuting that hooks players in and then Legendary be the big bang at a higher cost.

I think there's two things here.

1) From a pure Token design standpoint a +4 to all damage at the UR level is really on par with Linked Fury that has the restriction, I don't see any way to argue against that.

2) From a player accessibility standpoint if Linked Fury is not available and the Gloves go to +4 your still giving all melee players (except Barbarian) the best damage gloves in the game at that level. Which is totally fine.

If the Gloves stay at 5 TD could always go 5/7/8. If these already haven't went to the printer maybe you'll get lucky and maybe Jeff bumps it to 5/7/9 as it seems he likes to stick with those break points.

But they aren't +4 to all damage it's still restricted to 2 handed it just now includes another restricted scenario of 2 handed ranged as well which in most cases won't ever happen in the same run.

Why do you think it won't ever happen in the same run? Some runs have "ranged only" combat rooms, and characters using two handed melee weapons normally will likely use a two handed ranged weapon in those rooms.

Because there are very very very very few builds that have good enough +hit with Melee and Ranged to see it happen on the same run. You'd be more likely to find a build that focuses on Melee to have potions of leaping attack or the new Death Knight Cloak / other mechanism to make those attacks instead.

From the larger post:

Rob F wrote: 1) From a pure Token design standpoint a +4 to all damage at the UR level is really on par with Linked Fury that has the restriction, I don't see any way to argue against that.

I would argue with this. I think that is really important that the game be accessible to newer players. Unless something is clearly an outlier ( tokendb.com/token/gloves-of-the-flying-fists/ ), I think tokens at UR shouldn't be a step back from previous printings.

I also don't see the argument that relaxing the restrictions should change the budget for the item either in this case.

Do we want to discourage any of the following?
Ranged rangers
Ranged bards
Mystic staff wizards (is this a thing? maybe it will become a thing...)
2H fighters
2H Paladins

None of the above builds are really optimal, so I don't see giving them equal footing on the old UR as being problematic.

Kusig wrote:

Allen John wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Or we could tone down the UR.

No, we can't.

I mean, technically we could, but these files are either at the printers or will be there any minute.

Probably time to stop arguing balance concerns.

We could however bring up transmute costs. Keep them low for Relic since its a minor upgrade and bring them higher for Legendary compared to prior years.

In general I would like to see Relic level costs come down as it promotes collecting. I feel like the current costs for Relics probably deter a fair number of folks from getting started.

Will I make the Relic +3 Savage Sword?

Yes, I'll make it. No brainer when the damage wheel is better than Welfor's. Also a good upgrade for "Sometimes Fighters."

Will I make the Legendary Kilgor's +4 Savage Sword?

No. Spend all that gold and trade goods for +1 Crit and a little bit more damage than Welfor's and lose the versatility to use it with other "fighter type" classes? And I won't be giving up Welfor's to turn it into this sword either.

Kusig wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Kusig wrote: Tell that to the new player who decides to play Barbarian.

If I was a newer players I'd be happy with +4 damage as a Barbarian. If not I'd buy a Gauntlets of Linked Fury. New players don't have to always have the best gear, but it's available if they want it. TD shouldn't change power level within class rarities much overtime, if players want more power they should go up a rarity level. If it stays at 5/6/7 your still going to get players chasing the Relic/Legendary.

Gauntlets of Linked Fury aren't available for sale at any of the token stores. So we can't really say it's available. Also the current upgrade path is 5/6/8 not 5/6/7. I would prefer to see going from UR to Relic as the entry into transmuting that hooks players in and then Legendary be the big bang at a higher cost.

I think there's two things here.

1) From a pure Token design standpoint a +4 to all damage at the UR level is really on par with Linked Fury that has the restriction, I don't see any way to argue against that.

2) From a player accessibility standpoint if Linked Fury is not available and the Gloves go to +4 your still giving all melee players (except Barbarian) the best damage gloves in the game at that level. Which is totally fine.

If the Gloves stay at 5 TD could always go 5/7/8. If these already haven't went to the printer maybe you'll get lucky and maybe Jeff bumps it to 5/7/9 as it seems he likes to stick with those break points.

But they aren't +4 to all damage it's still restricted to 2 handed it just now includes another restricted scenario of 2 handed ranged as well which in most cases won't ever happen in the same run.

Why do you think it won't ever happen in the same run? Some runs have "ranged only" combat rooms, and characters using two handed melee weapons normally will likely use a two handed ranged weapon in those rooms.

Because there are very very very very few builds that have good enough +hit with Melee and Ranged to see it happen on the same run. You'd be more likely to find a build that focuses on Melee to have potions of leaping attack or the new Death Knight Cloak / other mechanism to make those attacks instead.

You may be thinking high difficulty level token builds. At Hardcore level (which I could easily see this token used in), it's not that tough to do builds that have decent hit bonuses at both melee and ranged (my group does).

Rob F wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Should the UR gloves go down to +4 damage?

Only going from +5 at UR to +6 at relic feels odd.

+5 makes sense as at the UR level it is a functional reprint of:

tokendb.com/token/gauntlets-of-linked-fury/

The Relic probably should have been +7, but not sure it is worth reopening this. Most folks making the Relic will eventually try and make the Legendary (is my guess).

It's not a functional reprint of Linked fury because it doesn't have the two hand weapon restriction which is huge because it typically impacts all classes except Barbarian.

+4 damage with no restrictions is more inline with linked fury. 4/6/8 is the way to go.

I disagree with this, we have a Ring of Havoc already that goes 2/4/6 in a ring slot. A hand only slot that applies to 2handed weapons only should be higher than ring.
5/7/9 for 2h only weapons seems super logical to me. 1.5x damage of a token that can apply to 1 handed weapons in a much less valuable slot makes a lot of sense to me.