TOPIC: Thoughts on Viv's and Kilgor's, and Class Legendaries in general

Let me start out by saying: This is not a call out post about anyone discussing Kilgor's and Viv's powers.

I think the way those conversations are going is totally fine.

This is post is rather about something that just occurred to me in the discussion around Kilgor's and Viv's, which I wanted to see how other people view the situation.

I'm noticing the existence of Viv's is heavily influencing Kilgor's design:

1. On the one hand, some people don't want much if any overlap between Kilgor's and Viv's. This makes sense.

2. On the other hand, some people want the new item to synergize / augment / extend what Viv's does. This also makes sense.

However #1 and #2 together seem to be creating a bad result, where it's hard to propose something people like.

For example, in the abstract:

1. A weapon with crit on 19+ is a good ability

2. A weapon with a crit on 18+ is a phenomenal ability (exactly 2 non-artifact tokens grant crits on 18s, and one is Rogue only and limited to Sneak Attacks)

However many people aren't excited about the crit on 19 property of Kilgor's because they already have it from Viv's.

They also are not very excited about the crit on 18 property because it seems like a small upgrade over what Viv's has (and I assume there is a feeling that some of the "power budget" of the token is being consumed for the crit on 19 property which is "wasted" power budget to people who have Viv's).

I feel like future class Legendaries are likely to fall into this same mode of discussion where:

a. If their powers overlap, people don't like it. (For example, if a new Wizard weapon granted new Arch-Mage powers, people might be unhappy because they can still only use 6 powers per room).

b. It's hard to find things that classes want, but that don't overlap somewhat with the class necklaces

This makes me think that perhaps:

i. New class based legendaries would be best in the context of updated character cards that add some new thing that offers progress outside of the current class based legendaries.

ii. If i isn't possible, new class base legendries should maybe just focus on raw stats, not abilities; e.g. a new Wizard weapon could just offer more focus, not try to also grant abilities which are almost certainly going to overlap with Mage/Arch-Mage powers.

I don't really have a great solution. I just feel personally that the amount of disagreement and conflict around the class necklaces was not good, and I am wondering if there is a way forward that doesn't rehash that every time a class limited legendary comes out.

I'd much rather that high end tokens, even URs, focused more on abilities than stats. The game is overboard on stats.

For instance, Boots of Defiance idea was interesting. Where more damage, more to hit, more (physical) attributes just tends to leave me cold.

Now, if I were designing the first legendary gloves, I would have taken last year's idea and just tighten it up to be: reprint Gloves of the Cutpurse, relic is +6/-1 DEX/STR, legendary is +7 DEX. Why more numbers here? Because it goes in one direction instead of trying to do everything. It doesn't obsolete +STR gloves like a STR/DEX transmute would likely do. It leads to build diversity.

And, that's so much of my problem with so many ideas people come up with. It's just wanting tokens to do everything. Okay, get a token that does everything - now what? There's nowhere to go. Eldritch puts too much pressure on legs/feet. Arcanum on shirt and, soon, apparently, shins.

Kilgor's doesn't need crit at all. The game doesn't have a ton of knobs and dials to turn when designing tokens, but you posted a host of ideas this year for effects not on tokens. Kilgor's could do something if fighter hits for 10+ more than monster AC, even *gasp* more damage, to make to hit matter more. It could cause monster to be Shaken because that doesn't just break monsters. Why it's supposed to heal user I have no thematic idea, and it's just more wanting tokens to do a plethora of things rather than having a clearer, narrower identity that leaves room for alternatives.

The class transmutes, even Drue's and Drake's, are generally too broad. Iktomi's makes sense for focusing on one aspect of druid. Ralson's has way too much going on but kind of gets there. But, why does Ava's, a sword, add to Lay on Hands when a different class token could have done that instead?

I don't know if Kilgor's is supposed to slotlock for fighters or not. If so, sure, it can be the most powerful weapon ever made, but that also means can't sell fighters on melee weapons in future. If not, maybe just concentrate on Savagehood. Could beat monster AC by 10+ and Dazed monster, for instance, as Dazed isn't just a monk mechanic.

Anyway, as more tokens get made, it does get harder to make new things as design space is consumed. Can abandon the past, but that will undermine the economy. If going to think longer term, should not only think about what this token does but what in the future will go in that slot instead and what will replace that and ...

Really great question, I’m personally in a similar predicament. My main is Paladin and I’m working on a secondary fighter. For me, i don’t have either of the fighter only pieces. As they stand, I’ll get Vic’s but not the Kilgore’s. Mostly because I have a Legendary Slayer sword and they are supposed to be reworked.

Back to my main class: the predicament I have with my Paladin is that there is only 1 class specific Legendary and as a weapon it’s seriously underpowered. It had unique abilities that are just for paladins but the dmg on it sucks. I’m hoping that the revamp will help because it sucks being the least dmg dealer.

Now, if we did have a 2nd item like fighters are getting, I personally would want one that will synergize and power up more if I have both. As a player though I can understand some may not have both so I do believe that there abilities should work on there own within my class, but power up more when used together.

Legendary Class specific items should compliment each other not overlap. It's not hard to do. Kilgore's could have an ability that activates on a crit that increases damage dealt to monsters by 2-5 for each time Kilgore's has crit it. Or even a damage proc / heal. Plenty of design space for them to work together.

Trying to find something to work with the Bard legendary weapon and neck though might be difficult however.

We need developer notes / direction to avoid the arguments.

Is Kilgore’s supposed to be the ultimate weapon like Ian suggested? How should it align with the new Asher’s? It 2H supposed to be a competitively viable option with 1H? If so what do the details of the 2H option look like? Will there be more legendaries, or are they just stepping stones on the way to mythic?

Ian Lee wrote: Anyway, as more tokens get made, it does get harder to make new things as design space is consumed. ... If going to think longer term, should not only think about what this token does but what in the future will go in that slot instead and what will replace that and ...

I agree with this - I suppose that's sort of what I'm noticing now - the existing class legendries cover so much ground that it seems like future class based legendaries will simultaneously be too good and not good enough.

Kusig wrote: Legendary Class specific items should compliment each other not overlap. It's not hard to do. Kilgore's could have an ability that activates on a crit that increases damage dealt to monsters by 2-5 for each time Kilgore's has crit it. Or even a damage proc / heal. Plenty of design space for them to work together.

Trying to find something to work with the Bard legendary weapon and neck though might be difficult however.

Maybe - but I think the problem there is there will be two groups of people:

* People who have Viv's who would find such a design compelling
* People who don't have Viv's who will accurately point out that such designs are better for existing Viv's havers

Take your example of something that boosts fighter performance on crit. If you don't have Viv's then the token is just worse for you than it is for someone who does have Viv's.

If the design choice is that future class legendaries should enhance the function of existing class legendaries, that is a very different approach than making a token which is desirable on it's own merits.

Given that audiences for class legendaries are alreaady small, further subdividing the audience might be not great for demand.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Kusig wrote: Legendary Class specific items should compliment each other not overlap. It's not hard to do. Kilgore's could have an ability that activates on a crit that increases damage dealt to monsters by 2-5 for each time Kilgore's has crit it. Or even a damage proc / heal. Plenty of design space for them to work together.

Trying to find something to work with the Bard legendary weapon and neck though might be difficult however.

Maybe - but I think the problem there is there will be two groups of people:

* People who have Viv's who would find such a design compelling
* People who don't have Viv's who will accurately point out that such designs are better for existing Viv's havers

Take your example of something that boosts fighter performance on crit. If you don't have Viv's then the token is just worse for you than it is for someone who does have Viv's.

If the design choice is that future class legendaries should enhance the function of existing class legendaries, that is a very different approach than making a token which is desirable on it's own merits.

Given that audiences for class legendaries are alreaady small, further subdividing the audience might be not great for demand.

Omni's exist now and UR tokens also can be used to grant the same effect but lesser to a broader audience. Example, crit range expansion can be granted through Amulet of aiming and also has an innate chance already. Viv just make it easier to access.

Lequinian wrote:

Tyraël The Just wrote: Back to my main class: the predicament I have with my Paladin is that there is only 1 class specific Legendary and as a weapon it’s seriously underpowered. It had unique abilities that are just for paladins but the dmg on it sucks. I’m hoping that the revamp will help because it sucks being the least dmg dealer.

I feel your pain. Everyone wants the massive numbers, but respectfully the paladin is a key party role as they protect the weak (aka wizards). And it’s freaking cool when they one-shot the big baddie in room 7.

It's just a cool effect to me and i love seeing it happen as a DM.

Legendary's to me should be more cool effects than pure stat bonuses. I don't mind seeing some overlap on legendaries as it helps people invest and get some multipurpose use out of them.

Lequinian wrote:

Tyraël The Just wrote: Back to my main class: the predicament I have with my Paladin is that there is only 1 class specific Legendary and as a weapon it’s seriously underpowered. It had unique abilities that are just for paladins but the dmg on it sucks. I’m hoping that the revamp will help because it sucks being the least dmg dealer.

I feel your pain. Everyone wants the massive numbers, but respectfully the paladin is a key party role as they protect the weak (aka wizards). And it’s freaking cool when they one-shot the big baddie in room 7.

Haven’t done that yet, but the reason I make such a quam about it is when I look at our class card. “ Even though they have some useful special powers, Paladins must attack well to be effective”. I’m a team player, love it, but knowing all of it, and then being constantly the lowest dmg dealer kinda sucks. I’d be devastated to loose Ava’s abilities so I do get part of it. Just hard to balance in this conversation since Viv’s has class specific buffs. But I get 100% what y’all mean. To want a stand alone and synergy… I want this too

The fact that all non-COA Legendary Tokens are eternally relatively easy to transmute via Omni tokens does impact future Legendary design. I do agree that new Legendary tokens are best if they have pretty clear distinctions between existing Legendary tokens. I do hope that more of them have fun/neat effects instead of just Stat bonuses. I'm saying that just as an observer, since the only Legendary tokens I've ever transmuted are CoA tokens.

Mike Steele wrote: The fact that all non-COA Legendary Tokens are eternally relatively easy to transmute via Omni tokens does impact future Legendary design. I do agree that new Legendary tokens are best if they have pretty clear distinctions between existing Legendary tokens. I do hope that more of them have fun/neat effects instead of just Stat bonuses. I'm saying that just as an observer, since the only Legendary tokens I've ever transmuted are CoA tokens.

I have been blessed in life and have paid for a lot… mostly things I missed out on and even to this day… it’s cheaper to buy what I want / need on the 2nd market then prime ( most cases ). That being said, I do agree, from past to future Legendary… should be more class targeted. I understand it’s not possible to do it all the time every time without others feeling they were forgotten. But I do like how classes can be proud of there things. Out of all my items, even my coa, I most love, and hate Ava’s. It’s beautiful and made just for Paladins, but it’s outdated. Even b4 savage, paladins have one of the lowest dmg in the game. Can’t claim we are the big tanks as 4 other classes can say the same. The one thing outside evil outsider kill that makes us stand out, is guard…

I’m getting off track, my point is, I agree with what you are saying. But… I also understand how weapons like welfors need to be upgraded WITHOUT being made class locked. It allows me to try 3 different characters without having to buy unique gear for each. I’d advocate for more class spec gear at the L + lvl and have it more open at the 5pt relic and below lvl allowing fluidity between classes for those wanting to play multiples without having leg gear for each one…