TOPIC: Safehold Program Targeted Feedback on Rules > Part THREE

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I’d really like to see the avarice dropped to a tier 2 mythic. First there was already people purchasing beads this year knowing the recipe was going to require them.
2nd were not expecting 5 tiers of progressively increasing paywall in front of it. I think this will probably create a lot of hard feelings.

This is one reason I do not like this program.

Jeff, looks good.

One small change suggested: On Page 3, there is a typo "(in which case you can have up to two hirelings."
The typist forgot the )

As for the mythic avarice being tier one or two, as some are advocating, I think a token that nearly doubles the amount a tokens a high power player is already receiving should be tier one. (Edited this was in error) Actually opens up a bunch of slots. Again, the same argument applies. Anything that opens up a bunch of slots should be hard to get!

apteryx wrote: Jeff, looks good.

One small change suggested: On Page 3, there is a typo "(in which case you can have up to two hirelings."
The typist forgot the )

As for the mythic avarice being tier one or two, as some are advocating, I think a token that nearly doubles the amount a tokens a high power player is already receiving should be tier one.

Mythic Avarice is only a +1 compared to the beads and CoA it replaces. It doesn't stack with CoA or TE Beads.

apteryx wrote: Jeff, looks good.

One small change suggested: On Page 3, there is a typo "(in which case you can have up to two hirelings."
The typist forgot the )

As for the mythic avarice being tier one or two, as some are advocating, I think a token that nearly doubles the amount a tokens a high power player is already receiving should be tier one.

Doubles? It gives three bead slots and one treasure more than CoA and the three treasure beads.

apteryx wrote:
As for the mythic avarice being tier one or two, as some are advocating, I think a token that nearly doubles the amount a tokens a high power player is already receiving should be tier one.

It’s really the one token that will piss people off if the feel the rug got pulled on them with. I would not be shocked to see some people quit the game angry about it. Also it no longer gives max treasure, if it did and people never needed to buy a TE again then that would be a different discussion.

Iross wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'll make one last pitch to remove the statements about these tokens "never being available in treasure."

TD never has to put these into the treasure mix.

But making this guarantee can only cause problems down the line.

You can see in the prior rules thread that it took all of 25 minutes for people to begin to grasp onto that rule and try to broaden it to match their own interpretation of the "spirit of the rule" by requesting further limitations be guaranteed (that Safehold related tokens will never be distributed in any way to Golden Ticket holders as part of that program).

Anyway - I feel there is a chance this wording will come back to bite TD down the line - similar to the fracas and hard feelings around the guarantee to not reprint the Horn of Plenty and the creation of the Charm of Avarice.

What's the benefit of making this guarantee?

I agree, I think it should be fine for these to simply not be added to treasure boxes without any need to make a written commitment to never do so in the future. A lot could change as the Safehold program progresses over the next few years.

I don't see that as an issue. One could always make another Safethold and go thru the process again to get what ever changes in the future.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

apteryx wrote:
As for the mythic avarice being tier one or two, as some are advocating, I think a token that nearly doubles the amount a tokens a high power player is already receiving should be tier one.

It’s really the one token that will piss people off if the feel the rug got pulled on them with. I would not be shocked to see some people quit the game angry about it. Also it no longer gives max treasure, if it did and people never needed to buy a TE again then that would be a different discussion.

Add to it players making the case that the tokens are too good for volunteers just adds fuel to the fire.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'll make one last pitch to remove the statements about these tokens "never being available in treasure."

TD never has to put these into the treasure mix.

But making this guarantee can only cause problems down the line.

You can see in the prior rules thread that it took all of 25 minutes for people to begin to grasp onto that rule and try to broaden it to match their own interpretation of the "spirit of the rule" by requesting further limitations be guaranteed (that Safehold related tokens will never be distributed in any way to Golden Ticket holders as part of that program).

Anyway - I feel there is a chance this wording will come back to bite TD down the line - similar to the fracas and hard feelings around the guarantee to not reprint the Horn of Plenty and the creation of the Charm of Avarice.

What's the benefit of making this guarantee?

Thanks for your considered feedback. I want to let people know all the Safehold tokens will remain very rare and they will not be diluted by Treasure nor GT bags. I understand your point...it is a good one, but I think it is important for us to make that pledge.

Matt wrote: Is there any plan for having access to 6th lvl class cards besides Safehold I down the road? Very much a feel bad if it's going to be locked purely to Safehold.

Not sure, honestly. It would be hard to make folks give tons of tokens to get 6th level and then a few years later make it easier.

BeLinda Mathie wrote: Forgive me if this has been asked and answered, but for the Follower Dragonkin and Follower Fiend, are the extra slots granted still subject to the 10 Charm and 9 Ioun Stone overall limits? In other words, does equipping Follower Fiend mean you get up to 12 Charms, or does it mean you can replace Arcane Earcuff or Charm Bracelets and still get up to 10 Charms?

Those limits are still in place.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matt wrote: Is there any plan for having access to 6th lvl class cards besides Safehold I down the road? Very much a feel bad if it's going to be locked purely to Safehold.

Not sure, honestly. It would be hard to make folks give tons of tokens to get 6th level and then a few years later make it easier.

Maybe use 2 lvl enhancements vs 1 (safehold) to get there as an alternate way for folks to play the 6th lvl class cards? I suspect/afraid of that without the Safehold access/way to get to 6th lvl it'll be a why bother to even play at higher tiers.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: On the summary chart on page 1, the benefit column of the last line reads:

5 Master Mythic Transmuter tokens
(May create any Mythic Token)

First, "Transmuter" should also be in bold as it is part of the name of the token. Second, perhaps the parenthetical can be reworded to "(Creates any Mythic token)" or "(Creates any Tier Mythic token)" for parallelism with every other row in the chart.

Under Safehold IV (page 3):

you can only equip one Underling unless you have a Safehold I (in which case you may have up to two Underlings.

there's a vestigial open parenthesis that should be removed.

Under Safehold II (page 5):

These tokens are created when a Safehold II – Under Construction token is used and transmuted into a Safehold II token.

This should probably be reword to avoid implying all four tokens shown come with the Safehold II. As much as I'd love arguing for a free Mythic Girdle in a few years, I'm pretty sure that's not the intention!

Under the same section:

The recipe to make a Safehold I token requires a Safehold II token.

All previous sections instead mention the previous token that is required to make the current one under discussion, not the token the current one under discussion transmutes into.

Under Trainer Limits (Hirelings, Underlings and Followers) (page 5):
The first statement of the fourth bullet is still a sentence fragment.

Under More About Mythic Tokens (page 5):
Since the statement about Mythic tokens never appearing outside of this program has been updated to state all Safehold tokens shall never appear outside this program, that paragraph should be moved up More Details (page 1).

Under Omni Cube & Omni Orb Tokens (page 6):
While it's already clear on the image, perhaps it would be wise to reiterate one more time that the Omni Orb (that replaces a UR) cannot be used to create in-print Relic tokens, since Relics are not Legendaries.

There appears to be a blank page 7 in the document.

Thank you for all the help with the editing. It is very much appreciated.