TOPIC: 2024 Transmuted Token Images < Feedback Please!

Matthew Hayward wrote: I’m not sure anyone cares about this, but rare Bracers of Fire that presumably are used in the exalted Bracers of the Inferno transmute are an ingredient in the Legendary Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength.

I believe this is due to Jeff stating that things used in legendary transmutes will be reprinted so they work with Omni Orbs / Cubes.

+2 Biting Bow / Brunnel's +4 Biting Bow: I still feel like these could be opened up to more classes to make them more appealing to more players. Someone somewhere said Bards on the Relic. I still feel like adding Fighters to Brunnel's would help fighters a lot. What if both Fighters and Rangers could equip Brunnel's, but then Rangers got a small bonus of some sort to make it better for them. A Shadow Shot like ability maybe?

Greater Belt of Beads/ Berg's Greater Belt of Beads: Others have said it already in the thread, so I'll keep it brief, but I agree about feelings of slot expansion fatigue.

I may be in the minority, but I'd like to hold off on spirit pets for one more year.

+1 to decreasing all belts.

Chalice is slotless? Or off hand?

Is the plan to have weapons for other classes in the coming years?

If we add Bard to the relic, we would have to add Barbarian and Paladin.

If there are going to be new Legendary weapons for all the classes, can we move away from just having big numbers and do something else? Maybe for the Ranger Bow, make it have a bonus +5 to hit, so Rangers can pick between big damage and big to hit.

Save the really big numbers for Mythic Weapons.

In regards to the bow Transmute chain.

As I mentioned in the UR thread, implementing damage based on dex bonus adds overhead to the app developers - may not be worth it if this will be the only instance of it happening. Also, having dex be an unbounded damage modifier as well as +hit, +AC, and + ref save may cause balance headaches going forward. You'll have to consider the interaction of every dex Item against the legendary bow to make sure it's not growing out of bounds with the rest of the game. You'll also have to take Brumel's into account if you want to make a Mythic Bow or other dedicated ranged weapon as it could very well end up being a better option.

The Relic bow could have a minimum dex assigned to equip and lock in the damage wheel at a larger number. You could even do that with the legendary - but what does it get us? It turns out that the new legendary bow isn't dramatically different than Io's. If we had lots of legendary bow's a smaller distinction might be OK, but we only have one other one, and safe holds will allow players to make Io's with Omni Cubes / orbs. Basically, things are all setup for Io's to keep going long into the future. Let's look at some actual numbers:

I took a 2023 Max Damage Ranger Build
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/b251ad8a-9131-4d4b-861a-603537485d5f

Modified it to add more dex where it would add more damage, and got this:
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/b251ad8a-9131-4d4b-861a-603537485d5f

I then plotted the damage and got the following Chart, where High and Low do not include the chance for crit (just variance on the wheels) while average includes the average damage on the wheel and the average chance to crit. Crit is just flat max damage.



Basically, the new bow deals slightly more damage, however the expanded crit range on Io's means that it deals more damage on "average" since it crits more often. I assigned a 40% chance to slide a 18-20 and a 5% chance to crit with Brumel's but can adjust those numbers however is desired. Note that there is a proposed Oil in the rares that will alleviate any significant concerns about Io's not being able to crit as well. (Side note, Quiver of Anointment might be a fantastic reprint with that new oil)

In the end, since the Io's and Brumel's are not significantly different, I'd recommend going a different direction with the new transmute so we have 2 legendaries with very different identities instead of simlar ones. Could make it a super accurate bow, could do some crit effect or elemental damage, or even do some kind of Rouge Assassin's crossbow type thing.

I really really hate to write this message.

I won’t be building the fighter sword as it currently sits.

I am so excited to get shined things for us lowly fighters, but…
- Kilgor’s is +3/+3 over the UR. I can find +6 str somewhere for less than $1000.
- Kilgor’s is +0/+3 better than Welfor’s. Welfor’s are effectively class locked with DF and HF, so $500 is common price. (Kirk jump in with sales data if I’m off) With Omni tokens, Welfor’s should be cheaper to build than Kilgor’s as they are older recipe.
- the crit range is duplicated by Viv’s.

The year of the fighter isn’t over though… we can make it better… here are some thoughts…

- Sunder has been suggested many times. If not that (or in addition), perhaps whirlwind? with an interaction with Viv’s being 3 total opponents. (Sunder on UR up + whirlwind on Kilgor’s is my favorite - sunder is a great party help at all levels while the whirlwind gives the fighter a top-level melee identity as a room clearer.)

- Can savage = Reckless? -10 AC, +10 to damage. (Insert better numbers here Endgame and Matt)

- Crit ability? On 20 shatter monsters’ weapon, shield, armor, staff, magical item?

- Ignore shuffle board edges? (Bounce shots allowed)

- The last thought I had was converting to a reach weapon. But I don’t know of a 1-handed reach weapon. Or what it would do. Perhaps it would count as melee, but some sort of extra - skip retribution or perhaps a retribution strike (1/2 bonus?) if PC is attacked in melee.

(And I don’t see the reason to have fighters use the bow…. )

Grizwald wrote: If there are going to be new Legendary weapons for all the classes, can we move away from just having big numbers and do something else? Maybe for the Ranger Bow, make it have a bonus +5 to hit, so Rangers can pick between big damage and big to hit.

Save the really big numbers for Mythic Weapons.

+1

Rob F wrote:

Grizwald wrote: If there are going to be new Legendary weapons for all the classes, can we move away from just having big numbers and do something else? Maybe for the Ranger Bow, make it have a bonus +5 to hit, so Rangers can pick between big damage and big to hit.

Save the really big numbers for Mythic Weapons.

+1

I honestly think this does change the Ranged Ranger build quite a bit with this addition. With the opening up of DEX as a +1/+1 modifier, I know my hit will go up naturally as I move away from +dmg bonuses to +Dex bonuses. I also don't think the weapons need to be opened up to all classes IF there are weapons coming for all classes. I understand the hate to wait feelings on this one, but I really like the class ownership of certain tokens. I don't anticipate many (if any) Fighters choosing to use the bow, so not sure if it is a big issue overall, but do think opening up designs for these class items is nice (agree with all that the Fighter sword should be more than bigger sword).

Lequinian wrote:
- Ignore shuffle board edges? (Bounce shots allowed)

I love this.

Going back to basics, the Fighter has on their card: "A Fighter's main focus is to be an effective melee (hand-to-hand) warrior. They have the best chance to hit a monster in combat while using melee weapons.

Maybe the Fighter Legendary (and maybe Relic) should have something like "Reverse Power Attack":

Precise Strike: During coaching, the wearer selects a single number from 0-10. This number is applied as a bonus to all their melee attack slides, and as a penalty to all their melee damage.

Also, fighters seem to hate having too much AC. Maybe it could have a tradeoff mechanic related to AC:

Relentless Attack: During coaching the wearers may choose to:
Reduce their AC by 5 for +1 to melee hit and damage
Reduce their AC by 10 for +2 to melee hit and damage
Reduce their AC by 15 for +3 to melee hit and damage

Kilgor's +5 Savage Sword - Definitely not crazy about a one-handed weapon that's better than the best two-handed weapon in the game. The min damage is higher, the max is only 1 point lower and the crit range is expanded. That's pretty outrageous.

If, instead of expanded crit range, it could lower monsters ACs, it would be a nice update to the Sundering Cestus. (I still think the max damage should be a couple points lower.)

Brumel's +4 Biting Bow - The Ranger already does an outrageous amount of damage. This could get really out of hand with enough Dex-boosting items. It may not be super-overpowered yet, but it will be.

The major issue is that most classes need to balance between Dex and Str for both missile and melee effectiveness. But since missile attacks are equally effective in melee, a Ranger with this bow can completely ignore Str in favor of maxing out Dex. And, Dex is already an uber-stat (AC, Ref save, Missile hit), and when you also add Missile damage and allow unrestricted Missile use in Melee, that's definitely a little broken. (I mean, one fix would be to stop allowing unrestricted Missile use in Melee. The other would be to tame this bow down, a lot.)

So I didn’t want to quote Endgame’s post to save everyone’s eyeballs. Also I’m out of town without a PC, but in regards to Brumel’s I did a couple things differently in terms of looking at how it impacts Rangers. I used a crit percentage of 15% for Io’s on a straight D20 assumption, but of course we know that VTD likely has a smaller chance than this, while PTD likely has a larger chance than this given bumps and slider skill level so 15% felt about right. What I discovered is that at the very highest end current build levels Brumel’s pulls slightly ahead on average damage due to Io’s seeing a reduced amount of crits. The break even point is likely around that 19-20% mark. Either way I think there’s a decent enough argument to be made that Brumel’s is in the ballpark of Io’s in terms of power level.

Stepping back from just math, I think myself and Utaku are the two biggest advocates for ranged rangers and I think we are split on our feelings about the bow as is. I love the fact that ranged rangers are getting their own (current) capstone weapon. I started playing in 2019 and went out of my way to acquire mats to craft my own Io’s because I wanted my weapon to be my own and not from the secondary market. I would do the same for a Ranger-only bow that gives ranged-focused rangers their own identity in the game and allowed them to be a more reasonable choice vs melee builds. As it stands currently I would not make this bow because it doesn’t do something different enough to make me want to alter the rest of my build and the Ranger only restriction doesn’t give a meaningful increase in power.I would simply stick with Io’s, opt to look for an anointed quiver, and stock up on the new oil and wait for a Mythic bow.

I don’t have enough Fighter expertise to comment on the sword, but I would guess the intent of single class only weapons would be to provide class identity and cool fun toys similar to the class necks.

I do love the idea of mixing up the legendary offerings so that you can focus on improving legendary options for specific classes while offering a more versatile legendary for everyone to target at the same time.