TOPIC: 2023 Transmuted Recipes Proposals

Those who'd like to discuss the proposed recipes for 2023 transmuted tokens are in the right thread.

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If you'd like to discuss anything else in the beta version of the 2023 QTR, please do so in this thread .

Vim's costs more than Boaz’s to transmute (+5 Alchemist’s Parchment, +5 Dwarven Steel, and +5 Minotaur Hide). Vim's should be reduced and/or swapped with Boaz's costs, as Vim's is the much weaker of the two legendaries and should be more of a value item (in my opinion the overlap with Awakened Synergy makes it always less desirable than BoFW).

Not seeing a change to Dwarven Steel or Minotaur Hides on Relics still 20/10. Not certain if that was on purpose or missed. Whatever be the case they are still too high imo.

Question for Druegar :

What are your goals with the Relic and Legendary recipes? Are you trying to have X possible to build from an order? Are you shooting for Y treasure needed to create one? Is the target Z after market price?

What determines the variance of materials needed for construction? You've mentioned RP reasons in the past - are you still sticking to that and boots should require nearly no metal and lots of silk, or is that out the window?

Without direction, feedback will be scattershot and not as helpful as it could be.

This is wasting a lot of time. These recipes just make no sense. The relics take more DS than the legendaries, for one thing. But, even fixing that doesn't make these recipes remotely appealing.

Endgame wrote:
Question for Druegar :

What are your goals with the Relic and Legendary recipes? Are you trying to have X possible to build from an order? Are you shooting for Y treasure needed to create one? Is the target Z after market price?

What determines the variance of materials needed for construction? You've mentioned RP reasons in the past - are you still sticking to that and boots should require nearly no metal and lots of silk, or is that out the window?

Without direction, feedback will be scattershot and not as helpful as it could be.

+1 these questions, especially the first one

My general reaction is "holy moly relic transmute costs have jumped the shark". I would like to say something more constructive than that, but I'm not sure how.

Thanks. The steel and hide look better. Much appreciated. Alchemist's Ink still seems pretty high. When I compare the total number needed for the two relic/legendary tokens to 2022, it's an actual increase of Ink (60 for 2023 versus 55 for 2022), which doesn't seem right given how high the cost of Ink got this past year. Most of the other increases seem appropriate.

An example set of questions I have:

Given: Vim's boots full construction cost (relic + legendary) is roughly 2350 at current auction prices.

Also given: Secondary market costs of Boots of the 4 winds is about 1200. Kilt is around 300, and skull is around 1500(?)

Do you expect Vim's boots to be desirable enough in builds that a player already owning Boots of the 4 Winds will replace them with Vims?

Do you expect a new player who is outright purchasing high end tokens to choose Vim's over Bot4Winds + either skull or Kilt, given that the eldrich items also confer a level and other set bonuses?

Do you expect a player who is saving trade goods to transmute their first legendary to transmute Vim's or Boaz when they use roughly 3x the TG of building older legendaries, such as Pharacus's?

Do you expect a player who is saving trade goods to transmute their first Relic to do so when they use roughly equivalent the TG of building older legendaries, such as Pharacus's?

I want to be clear that I think Vim's can be a good item for newer players and meets Jeff's goals:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=686&id=254428#425106

After some reflection, and several past years of complicated Relics and Legendaries, I decided to go back to basics with this year's Transmutes. These will give newer players a chance to get these basic stats covered.

I think the issue is that Vim's needs to be attractive from a transmute cost perspective to those newer players to create this item, over just purchasing something else on the secondary market and I don't think the current transmute supports this.

Endgame wrote: An example set of questions I have:

Given: Vim's boots full construction cost (relic + legendary) is roughly 2350 at current auction prices.

Also given: Secondary market costs of Boots of the 4 winds is about 1200. Kilt is around 300, and skull is around 1500(?)

Do you expect Vim's boots to be desirable enough in builds that a player already owning Boots of the 4 Winds will replace them with Vims?

Do you expect a new player who is outright purchasing high end tokens to choose Vim's over Bot4Winds + either skull or Kilt, given that the eldrich items also confer a level and other set bonuses?

Do you expect a player who is saving trade goods to transmute their first legendary to transmute Vim's or Boaz when they use roughly 3x the TG of building older legendaries, such as Pharacus's?

Do you expect a player who is saving trade goods to transmute their first Relic to do so when they use roughly equivalent the TG of building older legendaries, such as Pharacus's?

+1

I love True Dungeon and appreciate it tremendously. My comments here are about a specific cost creep that has been getting worse year by year. I'd like to see TD continue and selling tokens is a huge part of that. Like any hobby, that means new players are the lifesblood to it continuing to be healthy for years to come. Please don't take these comments as being critical about your organization as a whole - just a critique of a troubling trend.

Why spend $950 to transmute the boot relic when you could buy a secondary market legendary that is superior in every way? A Surtr's Belt just went for $700 in auction a few weeks ago. Would this relic be more valuable than that legendary?

Spending $2K for these boots when compared to $1,500 for BoFW makes no sense.

The escalating transmute costs give players fewer and fewer reasons to participate in transmutes beyond the 3 and 4 star ones when much better options are available through secondary markets.

I'm a hard-core collector (have all but 2 UR+ non-unique tokens every made) and I can't see transmuting these myself at these prices. This past year I did the transmutes but mainly because of how overpowered the legendaries were.

The logic to these boots is that they are for newer players. Very few newer players will want to do this transmute at these costs (and those that do will kick themselves after looking at Trent/Kirk/Chad/Mike's stores for what they could have bought for the same costs.) The total transmute (relic+legendary) can't exceed $1,500 or it doesn't make sense to do. As a general rule, I'd recommend 5 star relics not exceed $500 and legendaries not exceed $1,500. Maybe make the eldritch and arcanum and similar transmutes stratospheric in costs but, now that in-person is back, bringing in new players is even more important.

I would recommend that component costs be reduced by at least 30% and the boots should be dropped by at least 50% (yes - back to 2018 levels if they are aimed at newer players - remember, not everyone gets 23 draws per run and does 50+ runs/year.)

Fred

I want to know who thought this was a good idea.

Following up on what Fred said, if want to gouge players, start with Arcanum as it has no history.

Require like 10x every TG and 20kgp if want with Arcanum. Then can make set bonus "you win, congratulations" or whatever to justify the cost.