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TOPIC: Final Transmuted Images! (probably)

Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #13

Endgame wrote: The double boon from silk check is AWESOME!

It helps scale for difficulty even if we get better skill checks with new cards. It doesn’t prevent cool skill checks on new cards. Rogue could even get clue and treasure as the bonus (sorry Libram of looting).

Or double treasure! :laugh:
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Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #14

Azzy wrote:

Endgame wrote: The double boon from silk check is AWESOME!

It helps scale for difficulty even if we get better skill checks with new cards. It doesn’t prevent cool skill checks on new cards. Rogue could even get clue and treasure as the bonus (sorry Libram of looting).

Or double treasure! :laugh:

Pretty sure double treasure isn’t good, which is why I suggested duplicating the Librium :D
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Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #15

I personally like the relic and legendary tokens as is. The skill tests during combat at nightmare and epic are more of a waste of time then something useful, the extra damage is just so minimal. When higher end groups fail, more often then not, it’s due to lack of time, not because the monster won. I understand wanting to reward players who are skilled, but at the same time I also understand that those rare combats we fail, it’s because we needed another round of combat, and skipping the skill tests is a big part of getting that round.

If class redesigns are actually coming, I feel like we should wait until after those are complete to modify or double the damage from skill tests. Because it feels like increasing the benefits from the passed skill test should come from that redesign.

Not sure how to word it, but maybe allow Monks and Wizards to wear the legendary boots but only get +4 AC? It might be too much text to shove on the token. I like the idea of allowing anyone who wishes to upgrade to the legendary and just get the relic benefit when playing a monk or wizard.
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Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #16

Just my opinion, but the relic boots look very plain compared to the UR and Legendary ones.
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Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #17

If the intent of Boaz's bead is to auto pass as many skill checks as you want it'd bea good idea to say "any skill checks" instead of just skill check. It reads kind of confusingly right now.

I don't think it really matters if wizards are on the legendary or not. +4 or +6 ac, we're still going to get smacked if we get targeted at the levels remix it legendary items are worn. Part of the fun of not wearing any armor.
Last edit: by Josh M..
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Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #18

For the Boots I say remove one of the effects it blocks, maybe Maze. Just giving +2 AC as a bump from Relic to Legendary seems weak. Also, as Wade said I wish AC mattered more.. Meaning, I think we need to crank up the damage dealt in order to get more people interested in AC.

I like the Beads but I've never been a fan of the auto success Tokens. The skill checks are make the game fun. For people that like doing the skill checks the Beads become less desirable. I'd much rather see the Beads (and all other Tokens of this type) give you an extra bonus of some sort when you pass the skill test instead of auto pass. For instance maybe the Wizards spell does even more damage, maybe the Bards knowledge gives the party an extra to hit bonus. To have a bonus to a skill test on a Token instead of auto pass is much better.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi
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Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #19

So, there's precedent for dropping classes going from relic to legendary with Redoubt.

OTOH, monks and wizzes can use both TaMor's and Rolland's, so not clear what the thematic problem is.

Sure, many years ago, the boots would have been nothing but +2/3/5 AC and call it a day, but, then, there would be incessant complaining of how useless that is. It does seem weird to combine a Rolland's with another "token" worth of stuff, but Rolland's is in a multislot and these aren't, and, far more relevant for weal or ill, it's 2022 where power must be higher every year or somehow the game will collapse.

Melee classes are generally going to prefer Death Knight Boots on first runs. As soon as there's a +2 spell damage boots, wizzes would likely switch to that if they don't already get +3/6 out of feet slot. A wiz might rather +2 CON out of the slot.

I wouldn't care if the ACs dropped to 2/3/4 or 2/3/5 for old school progression. Do I care if monk/wizzes are off the legendary? Kind of, but I'd rather see something good finalized than constantly strain for great.

As for bead, I think caster skill tests make TD feel like doing something and differentiate classes, but, as a practical matter, I just don't bother with any test besides monster lore anymore and have been persuaded enough that those people who like skill tests can do them. To Fiddy's point, the obvious thing to do is to limit the bead to just the spellcaster classes and leave rogue off of it because that's the most interesting skill test!

Could be more old school, non-TaMor's and have bead progression 2/3/5.
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Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #20

Kenban wrote: I personally like the relic and legendary tokens as is. The skill tests during combat at nightmare and epic are more of a waste of time then something useful, the extra damage is just so minimal. When higher end groups fail, more often then not, it’s due to lack of time, not because the monster won. I understand wanting to reward players who are skilled, but at the same time I also understand that those rare combats we fail, it’s because we needed another round of combat, and skipping the skill tests is a big part of getting that round.

This is why doubling the skill check would be important. In the current design, with passing the skill you increase damage around 15% (to 6 total) on a passed skill check at higher end builds. An auto pass increases damage about 7%. This might be OK if we were stuck at 3 damage skill checks forever.

However, there are a lot of cool things that can be done with a skill check with a redesign … unless a token is created that auto passes tests. The better solution is to double now and make the test more meaningful in the short term, and leave room long term
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Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #21

Endgame wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Endgame wrote: The double boon from silk check is AWESOME!

It helps scale for difficulty even if we get better skill checks with new cards. It doesn’t prevent cool skill checks on new cards. Rogue could even get clue and treasure as the bonus (sorry Libram of looting).

Or double treasure! :laugh:

Pretty sure double treasure isn’t good, which is why I suggested duplicating the Librium :D


If double treasure is a no-go, I'd be fine with going triple or quadruple instead. Just saying in case Jeff is reading this :cheer:
I play Rogue. Occasionally I even play Rogue well.

Current build: tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/54550c58-0964-4b14-af03-5c485ca2ef70
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Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #22

Fiddy wrote:

AAckeret wrote: Thoughts on the Bead Powers. On the Relic, even the 1/Room would mean Rogue Box and Bardic Knowledge would always be successful, since those tests are once a room anyway. On the Legendary, auto passing everything seems very helpful to all casters, but I guess at Legendary Class it should be.

Question, on the transmutes, is there anything that could be incorporated to help the classes that don’t have skill checks to make the transmutes more appealing to more classes?


Technically, the other classes do have a Skill Test if you look at their class cards. It is the combat slide. So apparently Fighters, Barbarians, etc now auto-hit their slides. Combat will be so much faster now! ;)


Understanding you’re saying that tongue in cheek, but you are correct, the character cards do make it sound that way. The Players Handbook lays out what the tests are more succinctly, though,
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Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #23

I like this round.

Doing skill tests is one of my favorite parts of playing TD, and I remain hopeful that class card redesigns will make the skill test bonus stronger at higher difficulties.

However, people have been agitating for an auto-pass ability for years now, and it's clear that Jeff is on board. So I say: if we must have an auto-pass ability, Legendary is the perfect place to put it.

This way we will still be able to redesign class cards with more powerful skill tests later, and the response to "you can't do that because there's an auto-pass token now!" is "yes, and it's a LEGENDARY so that's fine".

I agree that the legendary wording should change to "auto-pass all skill tests": plural for clarity, and removing "untried" because if there's no limit then it may as well work retroactively too.

Also, the UR needs parentheses since the kicker is Rogue only, but for relic and legendary I would remove the parentheses and use "&"
dmrzzz's trade thread

Yes, my AC is lower than the Wizard's. No regrets!
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Final Transmuted Images! (probably) 9 months 3 weeks ago #24

I happen to really enjoy skill tests and would prefer that they become better after a class rework instead of just being hand waved away.

Here are a few Sample level 5 skill checks That could be higher reward when done with class rework… that probably can’t happen if there is a permanent auto pass:

Wizard:
6 damage and sunder monster armor (-2 ac)

6 damage and blinded: monster can only make melee attacks next round

Druid:
3 damage and earthbound: Monster loses flying for 1 round

Cleric:
Turn undead damage and undead held on passed test. If failed, no damage
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