TOPIC: 2023 Transmuted Beta Token Images

Azzy wrote: Hokay, some more formulated thoughts:

UR greaves: "-2 damage from energy type of choice (choose at start)."

Relic greaves: "-2 damage from all energy types." For this one I would also offer an alternate recipe, something like "can substitute X number of rare greaves in place of UR greaves (maybe like 10 or something- don't have to be unique)". Since this is a recipe that will be cycling, it could be designed more along the lines of sucking up some stacks of greaves/give people a reason to care about greaves beyond setting aside one or two (you'd have a better idea than us about how many greaves get mulched each year). Maybe if that doesn't feel relic-level enough it could instead be: "-2 damage from all energy types. Absorbs 1 melee or missile hit per game."

Legendary greaves: "-3 damage from all energy types. Can absorb 1 hit per game." Basically a strict upgrade from relic, with slightly higher resistance and the ability to absorb spells as well. Since this recipe is one that lasts forever, you could do something like "can substitute 8 different greaves in place of relic (presumably for acid, cold, shock, sonic, darkrift, fire, poison, sacred)", which wouldn't be possible until later down the line after the relic has cycled out.

Then change up the greaves printing slightly- start doing 2 elements each year, but the same total number of greaves (so instead of 5000 acid resist greaves, print 2500 each of acid and poison resist). Once all 8 types have been cycled through, start over again from the top, so greaves end up being on a 4-year cycle. Then, it lets people who are willing to stick around for a few years collect the pieces for a decent legendary if they do a bunch of adventures each year while simultaneously making greaves a more exciting draw from the treasure boxes for both newer players and older players who care about the secondary market.

I think this is much more like what most people were envisioning. It feels like a cleaner design to me.

Dave wrote: The Ioun Stone and Greaves feel like something that would be nice to have, but not necessary unless I want to start soloing dungeons. Seriously, I slap on Shadowskin and these greaves, throw in my Absorb ability, and why do I need a paladin? I wear the Ioun Stones and why do I need a cleric? It feels like we're upsetting the dynamic of me being a glass cannon that can deal significant damage, but needs the support of the party to survive. Not so much anymore. Just my opinion.

Yep, these should be marked as "All except Wizard".

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: My concerns with the greaves are a few things.
1. The relic and legendary are a gigantic power step up from -2 damage at rare.
2. We recently had to collect Cloak of Shadowskin because 1/room was too powerful. Now we're adding a way to do essentially the same effect 3/game (Shadowskin, Taborlin's Key, Legendary Greaves) We're basically getting back to 1/room. Yes, I know that each effect is a bit different, but they are close enough that design space gets limited, and it doesn't feel good to have your tokens worked around too often. We didn't see Taborlin's Key in token development, or I would have voiced this concern then.

That is a very good point. When you add up all of the similar "absorb 1 hit" type of effects, someone can probably design a character that never takes a hit in a Dungeon. Maybe those effects should never stack, although it might be too late for that.

Fiddy wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Here are the big ones. We decided to make a few lesser powerful (and costly!) Relics and Legendaries this year, but they will come in handy in any dungeon adventure. I hope some folks can make their first Relic or Legendary this year.

Jeff, I'm not sure it is a good idea to make Relics/Legendaries that are intentionally below the power curve and cost established by existing Relics/Legendaries. When more casual players have heard for years that Relics/Legendaries regularly sell for around $X/$Y, if they pull one next year and then find that no one will offer them anywhere near that amount, it feels like that could be a bit of a let down. Though maybe I'm picturing a bigger delta than you have in mind.

Are these legendaries less powerful than, say Byr's or Pern's? They seem like the 2018 and prior power curve as opposed to the class legendary power curve. This is probably a good thing, right?

Is there any chance of adding a completion token or monster trophy "4C" transmute (a-la Bead of the Lucky Traveler, Ring of Herosim, Icecrag Earcuff, etc)?

I don’t like Gregorgreaves. It duplicates the effect of Taborlin’s key and isn’t terribly needed.

I recommend moving to a hybrid elemental dr and ac boost for these (assuming fixes for ac’s to be important will be coming.)

I also don’t like that it is based on a UR. I would rather see something akin to orion’s belt where there is a transmute of greaves we have been seeing for the past couple years.

I recommend replacing the greaves with an armor transmute since it has been several years since redoubt.

Fred

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: My concerns with the greaves are a few things.
1. The relic and legendary are a gigantic power step up from -2 damage at rare.
2. We recently had to collect Cloak of Shadowskin because 1/room was too powerful. Now we're adding a way to do essentially the same effect 3/game (Shadowskin, Taborlin's Key, Legendary Greaves) We're basically getting back to 1/room. Yes, I know that each effect is a bit different, but they are close enough that design space gets limited, and it doesn't feel good to have your tokens worked around too often. We didn't see Taborlin's Key in token development, or I would have voiced this concern then.

That is a very good point. When you add up all of the similar "absorb 1 hit" type of effects, someone can probably design a character that never takes a hit in a Dungeon. Maybe those effects should never stack, although it might be too late for that.

Don’t forget to add the owl to that list. You can avoid 2 attacks completely then 30 from taborlin’s already. We have runs where PCs don’t get targeted 3 times.

Fred

Azzy wrote:

David Harris wrote: Agreed 5/10/20 seems better, but does it really matter that much. Basically, at relic and legendary level it will suck up one big hit from the BBEG. If he does 30 it counters it, if he does 20 it counters it. So if the goal if being able to absorb one big hit, then really 30 is fine. It is only once a game.

It's around that point where I gotta wonder why we even bother with a damage number at all. Why not just something like "absorbs one hit per game"?

I'd go the other way, and make the number REALLY, REALLY BIG to sound more impressive. "Absorbs up to 500 pts of combat dmg from 1 hit"!

Serious question, how many Taborlin’s Keys are out there?

Fiddy wrote:

Dave wrote: The Ioun Stone and Greaves feel like something that would be nice to have, but not necessary unless I want to start soloing dungeons. Seriously, I slap on Shadowskin and these greaves, throw in my Absorb ability, and why do I need a paladin? I wear the Ioun Stones and why do I need a cleric? It feels like we're upsetting the dynamic of me being a glass cannon that can deal significant damage, but needs the support of the party to survive. Not so much anymore. Just my opinion.

Yep, these should be marked as "All except Wizard".

And i would totally be ok with that.

AAckeret wrote: Serious question, how many Taborlin’s Keys are out there?

Very few so I don’t know why people are basing design opinions based around this specific token. You had to donate $1000 to get one or win the specific lotto on that donation.

Also please don’t make the UR greaves -2 of your choice at start of combat. That is equivalent to what we have now. If you know what the dungeon is to metagame you just equip the appropriate rare greaves. If you don’t know and are guessing you still just equip a random rare greave.

Fiddy wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Here are the big ones. We decided to make a few lesser powerful (and costly!) Relics and Legendaries this year, but they will come in handy in any dungeon adventure. I hope some folks can make their first Relic or Legendary this year.

Jeff, I'm not sure it is a good idea to make Relics/Legendaries that are intentionally below the power curve and cost established by existing Relics/Legendaries. When more casual players have heard for years that Relics/Legendaries regularly sell for around $X/$Y, if they pull one next year and then find that no one will offer them anywhere near that amount, it feels like that could be a bit of a let down. Though maybe I'm picturing a bigger delta than you have in mind.

+1 to this concern, especially for legendaries

I was really excited when I made my first legendary because the actual token is amazing, not because it comes on orange plastic. Intentionally designing a "legendary" that's not actually legendary won't help anyone feel that same thrill, it will just muddy the waters and cause confusion. If the actual token you want to design is only relic level in power, why not just call it a relic?

I realize there's currently one other special thing about "legendary" which is that the recipes don't expire. If that's the idea here, then perhaps it would make sense to consider gradually introducing a few timeless (or at least longer than 2 years) transmute recipes at lower tiers? Being able to save up for something awesome over time is pretty cool.