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TOPIC: Changes to the Havoc Rings

Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #61

Rob F wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Dave wrote: I think I'm trying to understand how I will get +7 next year on spell damage. The +2 Ring of Havoc is at best a +1 damage gain over what I have today (Relsa's Ring, Greater Ring of Focus, SRoEC). I'm not sure the +1 is worth giving up other benefits from the Eldritch ring. The Belt of Deadshot is only a +1 gain over the Arcane Belt. The Lenses of Hunting is only a +1 gain over the Lenses of Focus. Even if I equip Cranston's, I have to give up the 15 damage from Psyferre's if I want to equip Lenses of Focus and Lenses of Hunting. The Bead of Focus seems like the only clear gain. I think at best I'm getting +4 damage improvement and have to give up other things to do so.

And yeah, why are last second changes always impacting wizards? Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry, just puzzled. It just seems like the divide between spellcaster damage and melee damage got a little bigger.

You've got those things, + bead of focus, so that is +6. I would need to think a few minutes to find the extra +1, but no doubt its there.


Relsa's Ring, Drake Ring and Greater Focus ring are my current 3. New ring = 0 DPS

Orion's Belt is giving me 2x +2 Damage charms, new belt causes me to lose 2 charms which I Can get back via bracers but lose two Ioun Stones. Give up +1 Saves, +1 AC and +5 HP to gain +2 hit/+3 damage

Bead is +2 free boost
Lenses is +1 damage over my current Lenses of Focus

0+2 hit/3 damage -1 save -1ac -5hp+2 damage +1 damage

So effectively I have 3 damage without loss and 3 damage at a loss of 1 saves 1 AC and 5 HP

not sure how exactly that compares to melee getting +6 from just the ring, a gain of +4 damage over drake or other non +melee damage ring options.


I've seen a lot of numbers thrown around in this thread but not many make sense because they don't take into account existing builds. Your post does. And from what I can see your Wizard will NET a gain of +6 damage (3 free and 3 not free) by giving up 1 to saves, 1 to AC, and 5hp. That's really not much for 6 extra damage. Now with the melee classes I only see a NET gain of +4 damage with this year's Tokens if a melee class swaps the Legendary for one if their current UR's. Or am I totally missing something on the melee side??


Monks and Rangers?

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #62

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Rob F wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Dave wrote: I think I'm trying to understand how I will get +7 next year on spell damage. The +2 Ring of Havoc is at best a +1 damage gain over what I have today (Relsa's Ring, Greater Ring of Focus, SRoEC). I'm not sure the +1 is worth giving up other benefits from the Eldritch ring. The Belt of Deadshot is only a +1 gain over the Arcane Belt. The Lenses of Hunting is only a +1 gain over the Lenses of Focus. Even if I equip Cranston's, I have to give up the 15 damage from Psyferre's if I want to equip Lenses of Focus and Lenses of Hunting. The Bead of Focus seems like the only clear gain. I think at best I'm getting +4 damage improvement and have to give up other things to do so.

And yeah, why are last second changes always impacting wizards? Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry, just puzzled. It just seems like the divide between spellcaster damage and melee damage got a little bigger.

You've got those things, + bead of focus, so that is +6. I would need to think a few minutes to find the extra +1, but no doubt its there.


Relsa's Ring, Drake Ring and Greater Focus ring are my current 3. New ring = 0 DPS

Orion's Belt is giving me 2x +2 Damage charms, new belt causes me to lose 2 charms which I Can get back via bracers but lose two Ioun Stones. Give up +1 Saves, +1 AC and +5 HP to gain +2 hit/+3 damage

Bead is +2 free boost
Lenses is +1 damage over my current Lenses of Focus

0+2 hit/3 damage -1 save -1ac -5hp+2 damage +1 damage

So effectively I have 3 damage without loss and 3 damage at a loss of 1 saves 1 AC and 5 HP

not sure how exactly that compares to melee getting +6 from just the ring, a gain of +4 damage over drake or other non +melee damage ring options.


I've seen a lot of numbers thrown around in this thread but not many make sense because they don't take into account existing builds. Your post does. And from what I can see your Wizard will NET a gain of +6 damage (3 free and 3 not free) by giving up 1 to saves, 1 to AC, and 5hp. That's really not much for 6 extra damage. Now with the melee classes I only see a NET gain of +4 damage with this year's Tokens if a melee class swaps the Legendary for one if their current UR's. Or am I totally missing something on the melee side??

Is the Ring swap the only thing accounting for that +4 damage? Because Arcanist described a complete rework of their build, not just the ring.

And, of course, double-sliders look to get twice the increase.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #63

Range Ranger equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of the Yeti and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Range Ranger comes out +4 damage per hit unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary.

Druid and Elf Wizard equipped with Supreme Ring, Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing. New legendary havoc ring is not worth using.

Bard equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of Spell Storing and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Bard comes out +4 damage unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary..

Range Ranger and Bard gets most. Not worth the +1 damage for wizards and lost of healing for Cleric/Druids over Relsa's.

Best spell caster benefit I would get is for a Bard.

Players who equip different rings may see more benefit than I would though.

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Last edit: by edwin.

Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #64

edwin wrote: Range Ranger equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of the Yeti and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Range Ranger comes out +4 damage per hit unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary.

Druid and Elf Wizard equipped with Supreme Ring, Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing. New legendary havoc ring is not worth using.

Bard equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of Spell Storing and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Bard comes out +4 damage unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary..

Range Ranger and Bard gets most. Not worth the +1 damage for wizards and lost of healing for Cleric/Druids over Relsa's.

Best spell caster benefit I would get is for a Bard.

Players who equip different rings may see more benefit than I would though.


For the Elf Wizard I would consider switching to the Charm of Spell Storing in order to make the new ring work. Of course, that's only an option with the new legendary Charm Bracelet.

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Last edit: by Dave.

Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #65

Dave wrote:

edwin wrote: Range Ranger equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of the Yeti and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Range Ranger comes out +4 damage per hit unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary.

Druid and Elf Wizard equipped with Supreme Ring, Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing. New legendary havoc ring is not worth using.

Bard equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of Spell Storing and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Bard comes out +4 damage unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary..

Range Ranger and Bard gets most. Not worth the +1 damage for wizards and lost of healing for Cleric/Druids over Relsa's.

Best spell caster benefit I would get is for a Bard.

Players who equip different rings may see more benefit than I would though.


For the Elf Wizard I would consider switching to the Charm of Spell Storing in order to make the new ring work. Of course, that's only an option with the new legendary Charm Bracelet.


I would end up losing 2 ioun stone slots by giving up arcane bracers. Depends on which charms and ioun stones to equip.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #66

Rob F wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Dave wrote: I think I'm trying to understand how I will get +7 next year on spell damage. The +2 Ring of Havoc is at best a +1 damage gain over what I have today (Relsa's Ring, Greater Ring of Focus, SRoEC). I'm not sure the +1 is worth giving up other benefits from the Eldritch ring. The Belt of Deadshot is only a +1 gain over the Arcane Belt. The Lenses of Hunting is only a +1 gain over the Lenses of Focus. Even if I equip Cranston's, I have to give up the 15 damage from Psyferre's if I want to equip Lenses of Focus and Lenses of Hunting. The Bead of Focus seems like the only clear gain. I think at best I'm getting +4 damage improvement and have to give up other things to do so.

And yeah, why are last second changes always impacting wizards? Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry, just puzzled. It just seems like the divide between spellcaster damage and melee damage got a little bigger.

You've got those things, + bead of focus, so that is +6. I would need to think a few minutes to find the extra +1, but no doubt its there.


Relsa's Ring, Drake Ring and Greater Focus ring are my current 3. New ring = 0 DPS

Orion's Belt is giving me 2x +2 Damage charms, new belt causes me to lose 2 charms which I Can get back via bracers but lose two Ioun Stones. Give up +1 Saves, +1 AC and +5 HP to gain +2 hit/+3 damage

Bead is +2 free boost
Lenses is +1 damage over my current Lenses of Focus

0+2 hit/3 damage -1 save -1ac -5hp+2 damage +1 damage

So effectively I have 3 damage without loss and 3 damage at a loss of 1 saves 1 AC and 5 HP

not sure how exactly that compares to melee getting +6 from just the ring, a gain of +4 damage over drake or other non +melee damage ring options.


I've seen a lot of numbers thrown around in this thread but not many make sense because they don't take into account existing builds. Your post does. And from what I can see your Wizard will NET a gain of +6 damage (3 free and 3 not free) by giving up 1 to saves, 1 to AC, and 5hp. That's really not much for 6 extra damage. Now with the melee classes I only see a NET gain of +4 damage with this year's Tokens if a melee class swaps the Legendary for one if their current UR's. Or am I totally missing something on the melee side??


I can't speak to the melee players side as I have not done the examinations for them.

I assume a swap in of the legendary ring gains +4 melee damage.

I assume a swap in of the Legendary charm bracers gives 2-4 additional charms on a player by player basis

Charm of Champions Choice is giving +2 Str
Ioun Stone of Champions Choice is giving +2 Str
Charm of the Kraken gives +2 STR
Ioun Stone Kraken Coral Orb gives +2 STR

Given the propensity for +2 STR charms and Ioun Stones to be equipped I assume these will find their way into builds. That's adding +8 STR for +4/+4 in addition to the +4 damage from the ring for a total of +4/+8


I have no idea what would be bumped from builds to equip those as I don't build melee main characters but those are definitely pieces that will be added into a lot of different builds so they should be considered when talking about changes in builds for this year.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #67

edwin wrote:

Dave wrote:

edwin wrote: Range Ranger equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of the Yeti and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Range Ranger comes out +4 damage per hit unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary.

Druid and Elf Wizard equipped with Supreme Ring, Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing. New legendary havoc ring is not worth using.

Bard equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of Spell Storing and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Bard comes out +4 damage unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary..

Range Ranger and Bard gets most. Not worth the +1 damage for wizards and lost of healing for Cleric/Druids over Relsa's.

Best spell caster benefit I would get is for a Bard.

Players who equip different rings may see more benefit than I would though.


For the Elf Wizard I would consider switching to the Charm of Spell Storing in order to make the new ring work. Of course, that's only an option with the new legendary Charm Bracelet.


I would end up losing 2 ioun stone slots by giving up arcane bracers. Depends on which charms and ioun stones to equip.


A lot of tough decisions with the new set. Don't know if you already use Orion's Belt, but that's an option. It used to mean only giving up the Arcane Belt for 2 damage, which you could get back with Charm of the Wind alone. But now with the Deadshot Belt it's a tougher decision. No matter what, you can't just add up the bonus of the new tokens without giving consideration to what you're giving up. And that's a good thing.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #68

Dave wrote:

edwin wrote:

Dave wrote:

edwin wrote: Range Ranger equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of the Yeti and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Range Ranger comes out +4 damage per hit unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary.

Druid and Elf Wizard equipped with Supreme Ring, Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing. New legendary havoc ring is not worth using.

Bard equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of Spell Storing and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Bard comes out +4 damage unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary..

Range Ranger and Bard gets most. Not worth the +1 damage for wizards and lost of healing for Cleric/Druids over Relsa's.

Best spell caster benefit I would get is for a Bard.

Players who equip different rings may see more benefit than I would though.


For the Elf Wizard I would consider switching to the Charm of Spell Storing in order to make the new ring work. Of course, that's only an option with the new legendary Charm Bracelet.


I would end up losing 2 ioun stone slots by giving up arcane bracers. Depends on which charms and ioun stones to equip.


A lot of tough decisions with the new set. Don't know if you already use Orion's Belt, but that's an option. It used to mean only giving up the Arcane Belt for 2 damage, which you could get back with Charm of the Wind alone. But now with the Deadshot Belt it's a tougher decision. No matter what, you can't just add up the bonus of the new tokens without giving consideration to what you're giving up. And that's a good thing.


Definitely a good situation to be in.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #69

edwin wrote:

Dave wrote:

edwin wrote:

Dave wrote:

edwin wrote: Range Ranger equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of the Yeti and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Range Ranger comes out +4 damage per hit unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary.

Druid and Elf Wizard equipped with Supreme Ring, Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing. New legendary havoc ring is not worth using.

Bard equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of Spell Storing and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Bard comes out +4 damage unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary..

Range Ranger and Bard gets most. Not worth the +1 damage for wizards and lost of healing for Cleric/Druids over Relsa's.

Best spell caster benefit I would get is for a Bard.

Players who equip different rings may see more benefit than I would though.


For the Elf Wizard I would consider switching to the Charm of Spell Storing in order to make the new ring work. Of course, that's only an option with the new legendary Charm Bracelet.


I would end up losing 2 ioun stone slots by giving up arcane bracers. Depends on which charms and ioun stones to equip.


A lot of tough decisions with the new set. Don't know if you already use Orion's Belt, but that's an option. It used to mean only giving up the Arcane Belt for 2 damage, which you could get back with Charm of the Wind alone. But now with the Deadshot Belt it's a tougher decision. No matter what, you can't just add up the bonus of the new tokens without giving consideration to what you're giving up. And that's a good thing.


Definitely a good situation to be in.


Lots of choices and decisions to be made...this seems good to me!

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #70

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Dave wrote:

edwin wrote:

Dave wrote:

edwin wrote: Range Ranger equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of the Yeti and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Range Ranger comes out +4 damage per hit unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary.

Druid and Elf Wizard equipped with Supreme Ring, Relsa's Ring and Ring of Spell Storing. New legendary havoc ring is not worth using.

Bard equipped with Supreme Ring, Ring of Spell Storing and Ring of the Drake. New legendary havoc ring would give me +4 damage and removes damage type fire. Bard comes out +4 damage unless creature is vulnerable or resistant to fire then it would vary..

Range Ranger and Bard gets most. Not worth the +1 damage for wizards and lost of healing for Cleric/Druids over Relsa's.

Best spell caster benefit I would get is for a Bard.

Players who equip different rings may see more benefit than I would though.


For the Elf Wizard I would consider switching to the Charm of Spell Storing in order to make the new ring work. Of course, that's only an option with the new legendary Charm Bracelet.


I would end up losing 2 ioun stone slots by giving up arcane bracers. Depends on which charms and ioun stones to equip.


A lot of tough decisions with the new set. Don't know if you already use Orion's Belt, but that's an option. It used to mean only giving up the Arcane Belt for 2 damage, which you could get back with Charm of the Wind alone. But now with the Deadshot Belt it's a tougher decision. No matter what, you can't just add up the bonus of the new tokens without giving consideration to what you're giving up. And that's a good thing.

Yeah, I see the build developing more over the next two years (when Earcuff of Orbits gets added and very probably the legendary version of it). Then swapping bracers/ear -> legendary together opens things up a bit more. I'm liking that builds are going to be opened up so much the next couple of years, I think it will allow newer players a lot more solid base to build on and will allow older collectors a chance to play around with tokens that have always been marginal/situational and let those shine a bit more.

It's a great place for the game to be moving into.

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Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #71

It’s a little bit funny to see these “what about melee???” Posts the year after Belt of the Brave, Ioun Stone Jasper Prism/Ellipsoid.

Melee has reliably got more good stuff then missile, and more than spell, over the last 15+ years of TD.

Melee also tends to get stuff in slots first, and with more abundance. Look at the waist slot: before there was a UR level missile or spell boosting Arcane belt (which also boosts Melee god bless it) there was for melee: Girdle of Hill Giant Strengh, Girdle of Might, Celestial Girdle, The Relic/Legendary Girdles, Girdle of Stone Giant Strength, Belt of Ogre Mage Power.

Then in 2021 a completion token, Belt of the Brave, better than any UR melee belt, and during 2022 design we had to talk ourselves out of printing a UR melee belt many people thought was better than Legendary Surtr’s.

If in 2022 ranged happened to get a few more points of damage than melee, I think that would be OK.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Changes to the Havoc Rings 1 year 2 months ago #72

Matthew Hayward wrote: It’s a little bit funny to see these “what about melee???” Posts the year after Belt of the Brave, Ioun Stone Jasper Prism/Ellipsoid.

Melee has reliably got more good stuff then missile, and more than spell, over the last 15+ years of TD.

Melee also tends to get stuff in slots first, and with more abundance. Look at the waist slot: before there was a UR level missile or spell boosting Arcane belt (which also boosts Melee god bless it) there was for melee: Girdle of Hill Giant Strengh, Girdle of Might, Celestial Girdle, The Relic/Legendary Girdles, Girdle of Stone Giant Strength, Belt of Ogre Mage Power.

Then in 2021 a completion token, Belt of the Brave, better than any UR melee belt, and during 2022 design we had to talk ourselves out of printing a UR melee belt many people thought was better than Legendary Surtr’s.

If in 2022 ranged happened to get a few more points of damage than melee, I think that would be OK.


Just would like to point out girdle of might COULD benefit missile if it was a ranged class equipping it and getting 5th level (and thrown for all of those tokens). I’m not saying this is acceptable to ranged gamers, or spellcasters, just a very small point to remember. This is actually why I think the dex to hit and int to damage variant of a staff being tried this year made for a very interesting option before it was put away. Assuming a few legendaries (don’t know why they’d use an uncommon weapon, still a trial) the int bonus means maybe 5 points of damage, 10 on the high end for a slide weapon, dex means they’re building out higher ac’s and lower HPs (kilt etc) so they can hit more and no worrying about con since they’re not using spells. This very contrasting build to the necklace actually puts the wizard into the squishy and not the damage dealer, so like 50% of the guidance from he legendary creation discussion of 2021. If say this “ranged weapon” not only used int but focus it gives a strange benefit to equipping for a bit of spell damage also.

HARD Left turn

Imagine if it wasn’t intelligence, but focus as a stat and its bonuses were 1:1 increase for spell damage and his weapon damage, the focus stat might start at like 4 for wizard and 3 for elf wizard because elf wizard starts just a bit more dexterous. Then if there is a focus requirement for something like a “mad evoker book” it could be something like 5 instead of a complex equation like a value from your card plus a value subtract a value and divide while you’re at it. Please know, I love calculators I just don’t like doing math in dark rooms without one next to me.
Side tracked, successful
On the subject of calculators, the havoc ring should add up as less for melee because it just makes sense to remove damage from melee as this is a ranged set with all the elven influences, and they never get their hands dirty, it might stain the ring!
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