TOPIC: Changes to the Havoc Rings

Dave wrote: I think I'm trying to understand how I will get +7 next year on spell damage. The +2 Ring of Havoc is at best a +1 damage gain over what I have today (Relsa's Ring, Greater Ring of Focus, SRoEC). I'm not sure the +1 is worth giving up other benefits from the Eldritch ring. The Belt of Deadshot is only a +1 gain over the Arcane Belt. The Lenses of Hunting is only a +1 gain over the Lenses of Focus. Even if I equip Cranston's, I have to give up the 15 damage from Psyferre's if I want to equip Lenses of Focus and Lenses of Hunting. The Bead of Focus seems like the only clear gain. I think at best I'm getting +4 damage improvement and have to give up other things to do so.

And yeah, why are last second changes always impacting wizards? Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry, just puzzled. It just seems like the divide between spellcaster damage and melee damage got a little bigger.

You've got those things, + bead of focus, so that is +6. I would need to think a few minutes to find the extra +1, but no doubt its there.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: With this change, a spellcaster now has no reason to chase a Ring of Havoc when the Ring of Storms grants the same bonus.

It also makes the Ring of Havoc much worse compared to the Ring of the Drake

As a Honorarily named token, Ring of the Drake is expected to be above the normal equivalent token. Additionally, ring of Havok would stack with Ring of the Drake in a build wanting to use both, so I'm not sure its specifically much worse. Had havok been a +2 ring of focus, I think we would have been happy with it as a UR, correct?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Considering the post design change last year against the Mad Evoker's Charm this is the second time a major change has been made after design has closed that is specifically negative for spellcasters. Certainly feels like spellcaster players are being singled out by the changes the last two years.

Please revert this change

All of this. I'm not sure if you are trying to drive wizard mains out of the game Jeff but you are making a good go of it.

Endgame wrote:

Dave wrote: I think I'm trying to understand how I will get +7 next year on spell damage. The +2 Ring of Havoc is at best a +1 damage gain over what I have today (Relsa's Ring, Greater Ring of Focus, SRoEC). I'm not sure the +1 is worth giving up other benefits from the Eldritch ring. The Belt of Deadshot is only a +1 gain over the Arcane Belt. The Lenses of Hunting is only a +1 gain over the Lenses of Focus. Even if I equip Cranston's, I have to give up the 15 damage from Psyferre's if I want to equip Lenses of Focus and Lenses of Hunting. The Bead of Focus seems like the only clear gain. I think at best I'm getting +4 damage improvement and have to give up other things to do so.

And yeah, why are last second changes always impacting wizards? Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry, just puzzled. It just seems like the divide between spellcaster damage and melee damage got a little bigger.

You've got those things, + bead of focus, so that is +6. I would need to think a few minutes to find the extra +1, but no doubt its there.

Relsa's Ring, Drake Ring and Greater Focus ring are my current 3. New ring = 0 DPS

Orion's Belt is giving me 2x +2 Damage charms, new belt causes me to lose 2 charms which I Can get back via bracers but lose two Ioun Stones. Give up +1 Saves, +1 AC and +5 HP to gain +2 hit/+3 damage

Bead is +2 free boost
Lenses is +1 damage over my current Lenses of Focus

0+2 hit/3 damage -1 save -1ac -5hp+2 damage +1 damage

So effectively I have 3 damage without loss and 3 damage at a loss of 1 saves 1 AC and 5 HP

not sure how exactly that compares to melee getting +6 from just the ring, a gain of +4 damage over drake or other non +melee damage ring options.

Cassie wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Considering the post design change last year against the Mad Evoker's Charm this is the second time a major change has been made after design has closed that is specifically negative for spellcasters. Certainly feels like spellcaster players are being singled out by the changes the last two years.

Please revert this change

All of this. I'm not sure if you are trying to drive wizard mains out of the game Jeff but you are making a good go of it.

A SERIOUSLY good go at it.

Jeff Martin wrote: We have a lot of + damage to Ranged items this year which also improve Spell damage. To keep things from getting too out of hand, I have altered the Relic and Legendary items so that the "Ranged" is changed to "Missile". The "Ranged" is still on the Ultra Rare Ring of Havoc, though.

Without this change, 1st level spells could be getting a +11 points of damage boost...which is problematic.

Thank you for your understanding. Spellcasters will have to make due with the possible +7 damage per spell.

Great call, Jeff! Even a possible +7 damage in just one year seems maybe problematic, but it's better than +11.

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: We have a lot of + damage to Ranged items this year which also improve Spell damage. To keep things from getting too out of hand, I have altered the Relic and Legendary items so that the "Ranged" is changed to "Missile". The "Ranged" is still on the Ultra Rare Ring of Havoc, though.

Without this change, 1st level spells could be getting a +11 points of damage boost...which is problematic.

Thank you for your understanding. Spellcasters will have to make due with the possible +7 damage per spell.

Great call, Jeff! Even a possible +7 damage in just one year seems maybe problematic, but it's better than +11.

Why do you think it’s problematic? Their are more melee classes and 2 of them double slide. But they gained and no one sees an issue

First, I'll make the ring whatever it does. So I may not be the best to comment on this, but when has that ever stopped anyone on the internet?

Whether it is or isn't, this *feels like* an 11th hour change that came from some private feedback outside the main development process. Given that we know this has happened in the past, I sincerely hope it isn't happening again.

Given that a stated goal was to produce tokens that would drive token sales, this definitely feels counter to that stated goal at least.

If a change must be made, maybe just change the legendary? I would recommend changing neither personally, though I don't know what the rationale for this change is exactly, so I can't completely comment.

Perhaps an alternative would be to adjust some of the other tokens that boost range, leaving these as is?

Miathan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: We have a lot of + damage to Ranged items this year which also improve Spell damage. To keep things from getting too out of hand, I have altered the Relic and Legendary items so that the "Ranged" is changed to "Missile". The "Ranged" is still on the Ultra Rare Ring of Havoc, though.

Without this change, 1st level spells could be getting a +11 points of damage boost...which is problematic.

Thank you for your understanding. Spellcasters will have to make due with the possible +7 damage per spell.

Great call, Jeff! Even a possible +7 damage in just one year seems maybe problematic, but it's better than +11.

Why do you think it’s problematic? Their are more melee classes and 2 of them double slide. But they gained and no one sees an issue

Melee also gained +16 to damage vs spellcasters potential +11, reduced to potential +7

As someone who is just starting to build purple builds for running nightmare I have no interest in building any spell casting class because they are just too far behind.
Building a ranger or a monk I can double or Pelor forbid quadruple what other sliding classes are doing and if a wizard goes to the ground I would quintuple them

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: We have a lot of + damage to Ranged items this year which also improve Spell damage. To keep things from getting too out of hand, I have altered the Relic and Legendary items so that the "Ranged" is changed to "Missile". The "Ranged" is still on the Ultra Rare Ring of Havoc, though.

Without this change, 1st level spells could be getting a +11 points of damage boost...which is problematic.

Thank you for your understanding. Spellcasters will have to make due with the possible +7 damage per spell.

Great call, Jeff! Even a possible +7 damage in just one year seems maybe problematic, but it's better than +11.

Why do you think it’s problematic? Their are more melee classes and 2 of them double slide. But they gained and no one sees an issue

Melee also gained +16 to damage vs spellcasters potential +11, reduced to potential +7

+1

I don't get why giving wizards something nice is always viewed as the problem without mentioning the gains everyone else gets. I guess I don't play melee classes very often. Is there any ring today that comes close to giving melee fighters +6 damage? It seems like they are getting a significant upgrade over the +2 and +3 choices they had that I'm aware of. The ring slot for wizards was already crowded. Yes, at legendary it would be an upgrade, but even at relic it would only seem like a small upgrade.

Dave wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Miathan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: We have a lot of + damage to Ranged items this year which also improve Spell damage. To keep things from getting too out of hand, I have altered the Relic and Legendary items so that the "Ranged" is changed to "Missile". The "Ranged" is still on the Ultra Rare Ring of Havoc, though.

Without this change, 1st level spells could be getting a +11 points of damage boost...which is problematic.

Thank you for your understanding. Spellcasters will have to make due with the possible +7 damage per spell.

Great call, Jeff! Even a possible +7 damage in just one year seems maybe problematic, but it's better than +11.

Why do you think it’s problematic? Their are more melee classes and 2 of them double slide. But they gained and no one sees an issue

Melee also gained +16 to damage vs spellcasters potential +11, reduced to potential +7

+1

I don't get why giving wizards something nice is always viewed as the problem without mentioning the gains everyone else gets. I guess I don't play melee classes very often. Is there any ring today that comes close to giving melee fighters +6 damage? It seems like they are getting a significant upgrade over the +2 and +3 choices they had that I'm aware of. The ring slot for wizards was already crowded. Yes, at legendary it would be an upgrade, but even at relic it would only seem like a small upgrade.

Relsa's ring is 8+ years old now i think and is +5