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TOPIC: Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace

Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 3 weeks ago #1

In the Token development process, it was noted that some of the earlier Class specific Legendary tokens were underpowered compared to some of the later ones, in particular Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace.

It was said that after the process was over, a review and possible revision of Class Specific Legendaries would take place. Is that still planned (I hope it is).

Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace offers almost no benefits beyond what the Class Relic does. The Elemental forms it can polymorph into are exactly the same as the Relic, which seems wrong. It has a slightly higher damage wheel, and allows the use of polymorph potions without consuming them. There is almost no benefit however to using a polymorph potion since they all have inferior damage wheels to Iktomi's, and none of them have abilities good enough to make up for that. It allows the use of spells while polymorphed, but the Relic essentially also does that since you can unpolymorph, cast a spell, and then polymorph (and please don't use this as an excuse to nerf the Relic, which is certainly not overpowered).

There are plenty of ways to make the Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace more worthwhile via the TokenDB text without modifying the text on the actual token. Some thoughts:

1) Allow someone with the Legendary to polymorph into multiple creatures per turn. That was a last second nerf in the design process and should be reversed.
2) Make the Legendary version of the Elementals more powerful, including abilities like flight with the Air Elemental. Or, keep the Elementals as they are, but give it more powerful Polymorph options in addition to those.
3) Add a significant damage and/or to hit bonus, such as many other Class Legendaries have.
4) Allow it to have the bonuses from a polymorph potion while in elemental form (kind of like what was proposed for the Wizard familiars).
5) I'm sure there are lots of additional possibilities.

As a side note, there is some pretty important info on the Relic entry that isn't also on the Legendary entry (and vice versa), which should probably be added to both.

Thanks!
Mike

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Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 3 weeks ago #2

+1....and in the spirit of jack of all trades, I'd even take some bonus healing/spell damage w/o major improvements to polymorph directly.
~Rebecca

The Dragon's Horde aka our tokens for sale/trade
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=253588

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Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 3 weeks ago #3

Dragon6483 wrote: +1....and in the spirit of jack of all trades, I'd even take some bonus healing/spell damage w/o major improvements to polymorph directly.


That's a great point. It would be nice if it had something for non-polymorph Druids also, like healing / damage spells. Lots of these Legendary tokens have a variety of bonuses.

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Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 3 weeks ago #4

Agree on this as well. As a somewhat new player, the Shaman's Greater Necklace was my first Relic. (I crafted both it and my Bead of the Lucky Traveler at GHC last year). Looking at Iktomi's... the benefits just aren't worth it right now. In the short term, that's fine, I'm putting my resources into filling out my build with purples in more of my slots. But it'd be nice to look toward making a Legendary...

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Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 3 weeks ago #5

Mike Steele wrote:

Dragon6483 wrote: +1....and in the spirit of jack of all trades, I'd even take some bonus healing/spell damage w/o major improvements to polymorph directly.


That's a great point. It would be nice if it had something for non-polymorph Druids also, like healing / damage spells. Lots of these Legendary tokens have a variety of bonuses.


Even without a change to the relic itself, spicing up the legendary would help improve the worth of the relic as a path. Being "so so" at all 3 things would be on brand for the druid class :)
~Rebecca

The Dragon's Horde aka our tokens for sale/trade
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=253588

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Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 3 weeks ago #6

James W wrote: Agree on this as well. As a somewhat new player, the Shaman's Greater Necklace was my first Relic. (I crafted both it and my Bead of the Lucky Traveler at GHC last year). Looking at Iktomi's... the benefits just aren't worth it right now. In the short term, that's fine, I'm putting my resources into filling out my build with purples in more of my slots. But it'd be nice to look toward making a Legendary...


I mean, they're nearly non existent without the promise of a rework.
~Rebecca

The Dragon's Horde aka our tokens for sale/trade
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=253588

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Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 3 weeks ago #7

As a Wizard, I think Iktomi’s seems very powerful. It doesn’t damage yourself and lets you deal a lot more damage, no once per room limit. I think it makes Druids more powerful than all of the other classes
I play Wizard.

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Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 3 weeks ago #8

Anthony Barnstable wrote: As a Wizard, I think Iktomi’s seems very powerful. It doesn’t damage yourself and lets you deal a lot more damage, no once per room limit. I think it makes Druids more powerful than all of the other classes


Attacking the valid arguments of the Druid over their class legendary is not the way to get the Wizard Legendary fixed. Let's not pollute their thread with negativity and hope they respect our thread the same

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Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 3 weeks ago #9

Mike Steele wrote: 1) Allow someone with the Legendary to polymorph into multiple creatures per turn. That was a last second nerf in the design process and should be reversed.
2) Make the Legendary version of the Elementals more powerful, including abilities like flight with the Air Elemental. Or, keep the Elementals as they are, but give it more powerful Polymorph options in addition to those.
3) Add a significant damage and/or to hit bonus, such as many other Class Legendaries have.
4) Allow it to have the bonuses from a polymorph potion while in elemental form (kind of like what was proposed for the Wizard familiars).
5) I'm sure there are lots of additional possibilities.


I'm not sure what #1 would do, unless you mean allow swapping elemental forms between types per ROOM? That I can get behind. Maybe a benefit at legendary to add some spice to it.

Adding secondary effects for the Elementals could be cool. But we've seen what having a token give FLY does.. Probably not this option.

+to hit and/or +to damage in polymorph could be an option. But I honestly think a better option would be to add +5 to spell damage and healing for the Legendary so it benefits poly builds as well as spellcasters and healers. Give all flavors of Druid a bump.

Not sure there's a big benefit to allowing poly potions to impart benefits but that could also be an option.

As a generalist player I would say the +spell damage and healing bonus, combined with multiple elementals in 1 room would be solid boosts to make the Druid Legendary more wanted.

That's ultimately a question for the Druid public tho.

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Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 3 weeks ago #10

Mike Steele wrote: In the Token development process, it was noted that some of the earlier Class specific Legendary tokens were underpowered compared to some of the later ones, in particular Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace.

It was said that after the process was over, a review and possible revision of Class Specific Legendaries would take place. Is that still planned (I hope it is).

Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace offers almost no benefits beyond what the Class Relic does. The Elemental forms it can polymorph into are exactly the same as the Relic, which seems wrong. It has a slightly higher damage wheel, and allows the use of polymorph potions without consuming them. There is almost no benefit however to using a polymorph potion since they all have inferior damage wheels to Iktomi's, and none of them have abilities good enough to make up for that. It allows the use of spells while polymorphed, but the Relic essentially also does that since you can unpolymorph, cast a spell, and then polymorph (and please don't use this as an excuse to nerf the Relic, which is certainly not overpowered).

There are plenty of ways to make the Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace more worthwhile via the TokenDB text without modifying the text on the actual token. Some thoughts:

1) Allow someone with the Legendary to polymorph into multiple creatures per turn. That was a last second nerf in the design process and should be reversed.
2) Make the Legendary version of the Elementals more powerful, including abilities like flight with the Air Elemental. Or, keep the Elementals as they are, but give it more powerful Polymorph options in addition to those.
3) Add a significant damage and/or to hit bonus, such as many other Class Legendaries have.
4) Allow it to have the bonuses from a polymorph potion while in elemental form (kind of like what was proposed for the Wizard familiars).
5) I'm sure there are lots of additional possibilities.

As a side note, there is some pretty important info on the Relic entry that isn't also on the Legendary entry (and vice versa), which should probably be added to both.

Thanks!
Mike


Perhaps something like Mage Powers for the Elemental Forms at the Legendary Level?

Air Form - Flight - 1/room leaping attack ability as a FA

Earth Form - Burrow - 1/room burrow as a FA, you can't be attacked, but you can't perform offensive actions while burrowed. Unburrow as an IA.

Etc.

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Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 3 weeks ago #11

Mike Steele wrote: There is almost no benefit however to using a polymorph potion since they all have inferior damage wheels to Iktomi's, and none of them have abilities good enough to make up for that.


This is, I believe, a very much 'your mileage may vary' type statement.

A legendary Druid with a handful of Polymorph tokens may turn into, at will:

Snake, Bear, Brownie, Giant Spider, Shark or Triton

This has a lot of potential in Grind or higher difficulties, and in puzzle or unconventional rooms.

It also gives this token a guaranteed expanding list of capabilities as time goes on.

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Please Power Up Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace 11 months 2 weeks ago #12

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: There is almost no benefit however to using a polymorph potion since they all have inferior damage wheels to Iktomi's, and none of them have abilities good enough to make up for that.


This is, I believe, a very much 'your mileage may vary' type statement.

A legendary Druid with a handful of Polymorph tokens may turn into, at will:

Snake, Bear, Brownie, Giant Spider, Shark or Triton

This has a lot of potential in Grind or higher difficulties, and in puzzle or unconventional rooms.

It also gives this token a guaranteed expanding list of capabilities as time goes on.


I had a lot of fun turning into a giant spider in one room of v3a, for reasons I won't post here due to spoilage. Another Druid I run with regularly got great use out of the Gremlin and Shark in previous VTD modules.

I do think it would be good to have more separation between the Relic and Legendary. But I don't think it needs to be an extreme adjustment. Being able to change to different forms in a single room would be potentially useful. Being able to merge potions with elemental forms would also be pretty cool. These also fit solidly into the current theme of the necklace.

I don't think there needs to be an adjustment to add bonuses to damage or healing as part of the necklace. That isn't the theme being explored by the token currently. I could see a small tweak to spellcasting that fits in with the theme though... how about while in elemental form, you can freely change the damage type of your spells to the damage type done by your form? A limited form of Circlet/Crown of Elemental Mastery.

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