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TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #1

  • Jeff Martin
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I have received a lot of "feedback" about the last version of the MEC. Frankly, I was surprised by the amount of "passion" (<=nicest term I could think of) for changing the way the token works. To cut to the chase, I have spent the money to make a new plate made so that this "final version" of the MEC will be in print. I did not leave the MEC unchanged, but with the big expanse in "max hp" booster items since 2014 (and especially this year) the 10 hp cost is not enough for game balance. We will not be changing the Wizard cards because the old power remains in effect.

See the PDF for the final (I am serious this time!) version of the MEC. You will also see how the Relic and Legendary items will work.

truedungeon.com/files/MEC_Relic_Legendary.pdf
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #2

Jeff, thanks for listening to feedback. I'm glad there is a cap now on the MEC damage. I won't comment on current power levels since this is a final final final version.

One question though - for Absorb, does the damage being absorbed need to have been dealt to the Wizard, or can it be to an ally?

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #3

Question on Absorb:

1. Can this action be taken after the attack is announced, the attack roll made, and damage announced by the DM?

2. Can only single target attacks be absorbed? Or if, for example, a fireball spell deals 8 damage to all 10 party members, can you Absorb sacrificing a level 2 spell to cancel 50 of it, preventing whichever 50 points of damage as desired?

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #4

Observation:

Quicken's description lists a number of things you could do with your standard action that round, such as make an attack slide, use a wand etc..

There is a problem in that most of those kinds of actions would require a free action to get the relevant items in your hand.

Example: I start the round with Drake's +5 Staff of Focus equipped, and I want to cast a spell, and use a wand.

So first I use Quicken and cast a spell, this costs me a free action for Quicken, and an instant action to cast a spell. But now I can't use a wand since all I have left is a standard action, and my hands are not holding a wand.

I'd recommend adding to Quicken text like that found on Medallion of Mystic Mouth: In addition, quicken allows the Wizard to swap out whatever is in their main hand (e.g. weapon, wand, potion) with a second object requiring a standard action, use that second object, and then stow that second object all as one standard action. After this, whatever was initially in the casters main hands is swapped back in (unless it was consumed, like a potion).

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #5

Question on Intensify. What is the order of operations for cases where this spell is used by a Wizard who is wearing Charm of the Cabal? Does Intensify happen first, bringing SR down to 25%, which can then be further lowered by the Charm of the Cabal?

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #6

I assume there will be an exchange for those of us who have the old MEC?
Classes Played: Barbarian (23 times), Monk (19), Ranger (13), Rogue (12), Cleric (9), Fighter (9), Dwarf Fighter (7), Paladin (5), Druid (5), Elf Wizard (2), Wizard (2), Bard (1)

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #7

Can some check the math on me for this? A new wizard in 2021 decides to spend $250 to get the MEC because it is the wizard token of 2021. Since they are new they are not level 5 because there isn't a way to get to 5th level in 2021 with just rares, uncommons, and commons. So using just rares, uncommons and commons. How high can you get their HP? I think it is exactly 27 if you have 2 rares from the set and 2 commons. I think it is 26 with 2 rares and 1 common. However the elf wizard must have those 2 rares and those 2 commons to get to 26.

I am not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing. I am just asking someone to check my math and tokens finding skills of the 2021 token set. I only see 4 tokens that affect HP at less than Ultra Rare level.
Belt of the Sweetwoods +1 Con (4hp), Ale Drinker's Bead +3hp, Medallion of Charmed Life +3hp (assuming only the MEC is worn in the charm slot and no other charms), and Ioun Stone Granite Ovoid +1hp. Again not saying this is good or bad just looking for a check that I didn't miss a token or that my math is wrong.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #8

I'll analyze Wizard damage output with the Legendary, vs. Medallion of Mystic Mouth.

10 combat rounds over 3 rooms, with 3 rounds in the first two rooms and 4 in the 4th.

I assume:

1. Top end-ish wizard with +30 spell bonus and Medallion of Mystic Mouth, Crown of Expertise, Charm of Spell Swapping, and MeC.

2. The Wizard spell swaps into the highest available non-damage spell.

3. The Wizard uses MeC on their three best spells. One could certainly use MeC more but it would require coordination from multiple players, and/or massive use of consumables - and here I'm analyzing the Wizards contribution.

With Medallion of Mystic Mouth:

2x Lightning Storm with 20 base damage, doubled with MeC : 2*(20+20+30) = 140
1x Magic Missile with 8 base+3 skill check, doubled with MeC : (8+3+8+3+30) = 52
6x Magic Missile with 8 base+3 skill check : 6*(8+3+30) = 246
1x Burning Hands with base 6+3 skill check : 1*(6+3+30) = 39
10 uses of a wand, 8 points for wand + 2 for Human Wizard + 2 for Ioun Stone Flourite Cube : 10*(8+2+2) = 120

Total damage assuming all skill checks pass: 594, at a cost of 75 hp and 3 rare wands.

With the new Legendary:

With the new legendary, the Wizard can casts a Quickened, Conserved Lightning Storm in each room.

3x Quickened, Conserved Lightning Storm, doubled with MeC: 3*(20+20+30) = 210
Now for our remaining 10 standard actions:
2x Lightning Storm with 20 base damage: 2*(20+30) = 100
7x Magic Missile with 8 base+3 skill check : 7*(8+3+30) = 287
1 Burning Hands with base 6+3 skill check : 1*(6+3+30) = 39

Total damage assuming all skill checks pass: 636 at a cost of 105 HP

So this adds ~40 damage over the course of the dungeon at a cost of 30 additional HP but saves you 3 rare wands over MMM, allowing Wizards to deal ~63 points of damage a round on average over 10 rounds. It also gives you lots of flexibility with Absorb, Assure, etc. and for sliding Wizards Pierce.

One could add Ring of Spell Storing to both builds to add another 50 point Lightning Storm, at the cost of 2 damage on each spell. In the MMM build that also costs you 12 damage for the round you use it because you would have been able to use a wand instead.

By comparison, under VTD rules, similarly geared Monks have:

35 melee damage + 10 weapon damage per puck, 70% hit chance, 20% crit chance = 2*45*(.7+2*.2) = 99 points of damage round, with a 36% chance of stunning the monster each round until it's dead or stunned.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #9

Quite simply, I LOVE THEM!

I assume MEC is still a pool for multi target spells?
First ever death in True Horde
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READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #10

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'll analyze Wizard damage output with the Legendary, vs. Medallion of Mystic Mouth.

10 combat rounds over 3 rooms, with 3 rounds in the first two rooms and 4 in the 4th.

I assume:

1. Top end-ish wizard with +30 spell bonus and Medallion of Mystic Mouth, Crown of Expertise, Charm of Spell Swapping, and MeC.

2. The Wizard spell swaps into the highest available non-damage spell.

3. The Wizard uses MeC on their three best spells. One could certainly use MeC more but it would require coordination from multiple players, and/or massive use of consumables - and here I'm analyzing the Wizards contribution.

With Medallion of Mystic Mouth:

2x Lightning Storm with 20 base damage, doubled with MeC : 2*(20+20+30) = 140
1x Magic Missile with 8 base+3 skill check, doubled with MeC : (8+3+8+3+30) = 52
6x Magic Missile with 8 base+3 skill check : 6*(8+3+30) = 246
1x Burning Hands with base 6+3 skill check : 1*(6+3+30) = 39
10 uses of a wand, 8 points for wand + 2 for Human Wizard + 2 for Ioun Stone Flourite Cube : 10*(8+2+2) = 120

Total damage assuming all skill checks pass: 594, at a cost of 75 hp and 3 rare wands.

With the new Legendary:

With the new legendary, the Wizard can casts a Quickened, Conserved Lightning Storm in each room.

3x Quickened, Conserved Lightning Storm, doubled with MeC: 3*(20+20+30) = 210
Now for our remaining 10 standard actions:
2x Lightning Storm with 20 base damage: 2*(20+30) = 100
7x Magic Missile with 8 base+3 skill check : 7*(8+3+30) = 287
1 Burning Hands with base 6+3 skill check : 1*(6+3+30) = 39

Total damage assuming all skill checks pass: 636 at a cost of 105 HP

So this adds ~40 damage over the course of the dungeon at a cost of 30 additional HP but saves you 3 rare wands over MMM, allowing Wizards to deal ~63 points of damage a round on average over 10 rounds. It also gives you lots of flexibility with Absorb, Assure, etc. and for sliding Wizards Pierce.

One could add Ring of Spell Storing to both builds to add another 50 point Lightning Storm, at the cost of 2 damage on each spell. In the MMM build that also costs you 12 damage for the round you use it because you would have been able to use a wand instead.

By comparison, under VTD rules, similarly geared Monks have:

35 melee damage + 10 weapon damage per puck, 70% hit chance, 20% crit chance = 2*45*(.7+2*.2) = 99 points of damage round, with a 36% chance of stunning the monster each round until it's dead or stunned.


How do the numbers change for more/fewer turns? Is the average per turn the same at 12 or 6 turns of combat as the 10 given here?

Is a sharpened Scorching ray a contender at all (with MEC to substitute in for some lightning storms, or maybe without MEC to replace some magic missiles)? In Virtual I think fully boosted it would average 3/10 * (2*(36+30)) + 6/10 *(36+30) = ~79, (assuming the wizard can get to +3 to hit, so hit the 15 on anything but a 1, MEC adding to base damage is really nice here for the crit). This looks comparable to the lightning storm, with a much higher variance (which may or may not be preferable), and uses a lower level spell slot. Also, for skilled sliders I suspect the damage could go up in non-Virtual.

Without MEC I think the average would be .3*2*48+.6*48 = 57.6, so better to use than to swap down to a magic missile.

Edited: Math was all wrong, but I think the comparatives might still be true.

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Last edit: by Michael.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #11

I have to say, I simply don't understand what is going on here with regard to the design intent of making Wizards top damage glass cannons.

MeC gets a huge nerf, multiplying its activation cost to by 2.5. That's the glass part.

The new Wizard transmutes removes a steady 12 points of damage (10 for Elf Wizard) a round from Medallion of Mystic Mouth, in exchange for a 1/room Conserved, Quickened spell as a Free Action, and a swiss army knife of utility abilities.

I'm not seeing the cannon part.

Edit: Slight changes made since initial post because I forgot you could only use MeC 1/round

I've done a bunch of back of the envelope calculations over a 3 room, 10 round dungeon, and pulling out all the stops, using pierce and VTD spell slide rules, having the Cabal set, Crown of Expertise, Ring of Spell Storing, using MeC every round including on a 12 point slide spell, with this legendary conserve/quicken/pierce I can get a wizard to around:
104 points of damage a round on average over 10 rounds, at a cost of 330 HP over 10 rounds.

This Wizard is left with 4 level 0 spells to cast on their card at the end of round 10. Doing this would require the coordination of minimally 2 classes and/or things like burning multiple Gem of Last Hope or Fallen Star Mushrooms to keep up with the enormous HP costs.

A similarly geared Monk under VTD rules will deal:
~100 points of damage a round over 10 rounds

Without consumables or support from the party, at no HP cost, with better saves, AC, HP, and an 36% chance of stunning the monster every round until it's been stunned once or is dead. They can continue to do this indefinitely. With a few consumables it's easy to bump the Monk up over the ~104 average damage of the Wizard.

I don't get it.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary 1 month 1 week ago #12

Thank you Jeff for all of the work on this, I can tell you that the wizards in our adventuring party are very excited to get their hands on these new powers.

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