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TOPIC: Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #13

Thanks, Jeff, I think those changes were needed, I'm glad you had time to make them.

Looking at the new Wizard tokens, and going with the assumption Jeff gave us that Wizard spells will double in damage on the spell card:

Even with the new tokens, if the spell damage is doubled, if the Wizard has 51 HP (and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP since 25 HP bonuses are available from this set alone), 35 bonus spell damage, the MEC and the Ring of Spell Storing, the Wizard can do this on the first round:

Cast Lightning Storm for 40 points, add 35 bonus spell damage, channel MEC for 50 points, for 125 damage.
Cast via Ring of Spell Storing Lightning Storm for 40 points and 35 bonus spell damage for 75 points of damage.
Combining those two, the Wizard can do 200 points of damage in the first turn.  With both Wizards, you're looking at 400 points of damage in just the first round of combat, and that doesn't require the Wizard Class Relic or Legendary, just the MEC.  160 points of that would be damage to all monsters while I'm assuming the 100 MEC damage plus 140 bonus spell damage would be pool damage (I'm not 100% sure if that bonus damage is pool or to all monsters).

Looking at the Infernal Redoubt module, that means that the two Wizards by themselves can kill the Mindslayer or Fire Fiend on Nightmare mode (400 HP) by themselves on round one.  A Single Wizard could kill the Mindslayer in Normal mode (200 HP) by himself on Round 1.  Also since it is an area attack spell, in Room 7 the two Wizards could not only kill the Mind Slayer on round 1 in Nightmare, they would also do 160 of the 500 damage needed to kill Blackthorn in Round 1. That is 560 damage by the two Wizards in Round 1 of the final room.

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #14

Matthew Hayward wrote: I look forward to seeing what the changes are and seeing how they impact damage output.

One thing: if mage powers can only be used in combat, and only one can be used per round, the limit of 4/room versus 6 seems only theoretically relevant.

In 13 years of playing I’m not sure I’ve ever gotten to round 5 (and I have run out of time in monster rooms) in combat.

I’m almost positive I’ve never gotten to round 6.


Typically three rounds are what I experience as max in a combat room.

There was a perfect storm of events a few years ago where I actually had 6 rounds of combat but that included the remainder of party being unable to do anything for 5 of those rounds and only 1 other character doing something for one of those rounds.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #15

I agree, 3 rounds max is what I normally experience. We did have one combat this year that went 6 rounds, but only because the DM told us at the end that he multiplied the monsters hp by 7 to make the combat last longer. And we still killed it in time.

Also, I agree some change to what was there was needed. I still feel any final judgement and damage calculations need to wait until we see what happens with mage/archmage powers and the revised character card. I'm sure some people will want to assume a worst case scenario, but I'm willing to wait a bit. It's still a little early to get worked up over what may turn out not to be an issue.

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Last edit: by Dave.

Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #16

9 rounds of revisions in under 2 weeks (and a few extra tweaks in between rounds in a few cases)! That's a ton of work Jeff! Thank you for putting so much into the design, and for listening to us.

I hope the Wizards wind up happy when you're gotten everything written up for them. As someone who has Cleric and Fighter as 2 of their 4 most-frequent classes, I'm satisfied with the end results on Cleric and Fighter Legendaries.

My question to the group is... We know who Psyferre and Cranston are. Oh and that fine Druegar fellow heading up Pelor's order (the teal on the necklace was a nice touch). And we're pretty certain we know who Ashenne is as well. But do we know who Viv is on the Fighter Legendary?

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #17

Mike Steele wrote: Thanks, Jeff, I think those changes were needed, I'm glad you had time to make them.

Looking at the new Wizard tokens, and going with the assumption Jeff gave us that Wizard spells will double in damage on the spell card:

Even with the new tokens, if the spell damage is doubled, if the Wizard has 51 HP (and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP since 25 HP bonuses are available from this set alone), 35 bonus spell damage, the MEC and the Ring of Spell Storing, the Wizard can do this on the first round:

Cast Lightning Storm for 40 points, add 35 bonus spell damage, channel MEC for 50 points, for 125 damage.
Cast via Ring of Spell Storing Lightning Storm for 40 points and 35 bonus spell damage for 75 points of damage.
Combining those two, the Wizard can do 200 points of damage in the first turn.  With both Wizards, you're looking at 400 points of damage in just the first round of combat, and that doesn't require the Wizard Class Relic or Legendary, just the MEC.  160 points of that would be damage to all monsters while I'm assuming the 100 MEC damage plus 140 bonus spell damage would be pool damage (I'm not 100% sure if that bonus damage is pool or to all monsters).

Looking at the Infernal Redoubt module, that means that the two Wizards by themselves can kill the Mindslayer or Fire Fiend on Nightmare mode (400 HP) by themselves on round one.  A Single Wizard could kill the Mindslayer in Normal mode (200 HP) by himself on Round 1.  Also since it is an area attack spell, in Room 7 the two Wizards could not only kill the Mind Slayer on round 1 in Nightmare, they would also do 160 of the 500 damage needed to kill Blackthorn in Round 1. That is 560 damage by the two Wizards in Round 1 of the final room.

That is a lot of damage.... I guess monster hp will need to at least double or triple to compensate? Will party comp need to adjust to run double wizard then, and need both cleric and druid to fuel the hp loss?

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #18

Mage medallion still calls our MEC FA ability (I refreshed and the MEC doesn’t have it but the relic calls it out).

Thanks Jeff for an amazing token cycle.
--
macXdmg
Monk of the Painda Order
Bard of the College of Sick Beats

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #19

macxdmg wrote: Mage medallion still calls our MEC FA ability (I refreshed and the MEC doesn’t have it but the relic calls it out).

Thanks Jeff for an amazing token cycle.


Make sure to hit Refresh while viewing the transmutes image. I definitely do not see FA on the Relic.

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #20

Thanks so much for all your work on the Tokens Jeff!! There's so many Tokens out there now it's really hard to determine how things will play out until you actually throw a party together and send them off to the dungeon! I'm sure everyone will have an enjoyable time with this new set. Just can't wait for the day that everyone is together again. I REALLY missed Gen-Con this year and going with my kids. And we all missed True Dungeon. Keeping my hopes up that next year TD will be back in full swing at The Con!!!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Albert Einstein

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #21

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Thanks, Jeff, I think those changes were needed, I'm glad you had time to make them.

Looking at the new Wizard tokens, and going with the assumption Jeff gave us that Wizard spells will double in damage on the spell card:

Even with the new tokens, if the spell damage is doubled, if the Wizard has 51 HP (and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP since 25 HP bonuses are available from this set alone), 35 bonus spell damage, the MEC and the Ring of Spell Storing, the Wizard can do this on the first round:

Cast Lightning Storm for 40 points, add 35 bonus spell damage, channel MEC for 50 points, for 125 damage.
Cast via Ring of Spell Storing Lightning Storm for 40 points and 35 bonus spell damage for 75 points of damage.
Combining those two, the Wizard can do 200 points of damage in the first turn.  With both Wizards, you're looking at 400 points of damage in just the first round of combat, and that doesn't require the Wizard Class Relic or Legendary, just the MEC.  160 points of that would be damage to all monsters while I'm assuming the 100 MEC damage plus 140 bonus spell damage would be pool damage (I'm not 100% sure if that bonus damage is pool or to all monsters).

Looking at the Infernal Redoubt module, that means that the two Wizards by themselves can kill the Mindslayer or Fire Fiend on Nightmare mode (400 HP) by themselves on round one.  A Single Wizard could kill the Mindslayer in Normal mode (200 HP) by himself on Round 1.  Also since it is an area attack spell, in Room 7 the two Wizards could not only kill the Mind Slayer on round 1 in Nightmare, they would also do 160 of the 500 damage needed to kill Blackthorn in Round 1. That is 560 damage by the two Wizards in Round 1 of the final room.

That is a lot of damage.... I guess monster hp will need to at least double or triple to compensate? Will party comp need to adjust to run double wizard then, and need both cleric and druid to fuel the hp loss?


I was gonna comment how this max damage isn't sustainable for the wizard; it is unrealistic and disingenuous to expect the wizard to deal this much damage every round...

And then I thought; if a party decides to coordinate the actions of at least half the party, to work together as a single unit, in order to have certain characters deal crazy good damage while others are supporting them/making it even possible...well then, I think Jeff is gonna call that mission frakking accomplished!
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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #22

Great set of changes. If for some reason a 2:1 damage trade is reasonable after the new Wizard and Elf Wizard cards are completed it can come back as a mage power. :)

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #23

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Thanks, Jeff, I think those changes were needed, I'm glad you had time to make them.

Looking at the new Wizard tokens, and going with the assumption Jeff gave us that Wizard spells will double in damage on the spell card:

Even with the new tokens, if the spell damage is doubled, if the Wizard has 51 HP (and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP since 25 HP bonuses are available from this set alone), 35 bonus spell damage, the MEC and the Ring of Spell Storing, the Wizard can do this on the first round:

Cast Lightning Storm for 40 points, add 35 bonus spell damage, channel MEC for 50 points, for 125 damage.
Cast via Ring of Spell Storing Lightning Storm for 40 points and 35 bonus spell damage for 75 points of damage.
Combining those two, the Wizard can do 200 points of damage in the first turn.  With both Wizards, you're looking at 400 points of damage in just the first round of combat, and that doesn't require the Wizard Class Relic or Legendary, just the MEC.  160 points of that would be damage to all monsters while I'm assuming the 100 MEC damage plus 140 bonus spell damage would be pool damage (I'm not 100% sure if that bonus damage is pool or to all monsters).

Looking at the Infernal Redoubt module, that means that the two Wizards by themselves can kill the Mindslayer or Fire Fiend on Nightmare mode (400 HP) by themselves on round one.  A Single Wizard could kill the Mindslayer in Normal mode (200 HP) by himself on Round 1.  Also since it is an area attack spell, in Room 7 the two Wizards could not only kill the Mind Slayer on round 1 in Nightmare, they would also do 160 of the 500 damage needed to kill Blackthorn in Round 1. That is 560 damage by the two Wizards in Round 1 of the final room.

That is a lot of damage.... I guess monster hp will need to at least double or triple to compensate? Will party comp need to adjust to run double wizard then, and need both cleric and druid to fuel the hp loss?


From what I'm seeing on the forums it seems like whenever someone posts an analysis with tons of damage for the casting classes the Ring of Spell Storing is usually involved. What if Jeff just changed it so that the spell cast from the ring had to be cast as a Scroll with no modifiers? The Token would not have to change, only an update to Tokendb. Would this water the ring down too much? If so, then maybe the RoSS should somehow become a Relic. And the UR should be part of the recipe.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Albert Einstein

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Last Second Changes Made - Sorry! FINAL Contact Sheets 1 month 2 weeks ago #24

kurtreznor wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Thanks, Jeff, I think those changes were needed, I'm glad you had time to make them.

Looking at the new Wizard tokens, and going with the assumption Jeff gave us that Wizard spells will double in damage on the spell card:

Even with the new tokens, if the spell damage is doubled, if the Wizard has 51 HP (and I'm sure the Wizard can go a lot higher than 51 HP since 25 HP bonuses are available from this set alone), 35 bonus spell damage, the MEC and the Ring of Spell Storing, the Wizard can do this on the first round:

Cast Lightning Storm for 40 points, add 35 bonus spell damage, channel MEC for 50 points, for 125 damage.
Cast via Ring of Spell Storing Lightning Storm for 40 points and 35 bonus spell damage for 75 points of damage.
Combining those two, the Wizard can do 200 points of damage in the first turn.  With both Wizards, you're looking at 400 points of damage in just the first round of combat, and that doesn't require the Wizard Class Relic or Legendary, just the MEC.  160 points of that would be damage to all monsters while I'm assuming the 100 MEC damage plus 140 bonus spell damage would be pool damage (I'm not 100% sure if that bonus damage is pool or to all monsters).

Looking at the Infernal Redoubt module, that means that the two Wizards by themselves can kill the Mindslayer or Fire Fiend on Nightmare mode (400 HP) by themselves on round one.  A Single Wizard could kill the Mindslayer in Normal mode (200 HP) by himself on Round 1.  Also since it is an area attack spell, in Room 7 the two Wizards could not only kill the Mind Slayer on round 1 in Nightmare, they would also do 160 of the 500 damage needed to kill Blackthorn in Round 1. That is 560 damage by the two Wizards in Round 1 of the final room.

That is a lot of damage.... I guess monster hp will need to at least double or triple to compensate? Will party comp need to adjust to run double wizard then, and need both cleric and druid to fuel the hp loss?


I was gonna comment how this max damage isn't sustainable for the wizard; it is unrealistic and disingenuous to expect the wizard to deal this much damage every round...

And then I thought; if a party decides to coordinate the actions of at least half the party, to work together as a single unit, in order to have certain characters deal crazy good damage while others are supporting them/making it even possible...well then, I think Jeff is gonna call that mission frakking accomplished!

Would you need half the party?

I would have to look at builds post this set, but I presume that wizards have just freed up a charm, and that the shirt of focus is no longer relevant to overall damage. At minimum, both wizards, the cleric, and the Druid Equip a linked shirt of healing. Wizards use the newly opened charm slot for a key of healing, and, why not, toss in a healing runestone and maybe even find room for an agate orb.

Every split healing spell heals +7 (+8 with orb). Let’s go with an odd number for the cleric and Druid Healing - say +19 for Easy math. Cure minor wounds will be split for At least 17 per wizard per healer (34+ per caster), and scale from there for larger heals.

It probably doesn’t make sense to ever have the Druid cast an attack spell as the wizard will be at least double what the Druid can do damage spell wise.

Party wise, probably need to leave the Fighters at home, given they are likely to be the bottom rung of damage dealer?

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