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TOPIC: SUPER Final Transmuted Images

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #13

  • Harlax
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Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: I have taken my current build and projected what I can expect. I did make one change, swapping Welfors for Thors. I don't have Welfors, but it represents the best case scenario for one handed weapon. Other builds will be somewhat better for damage, but with tradeoffs lilke lower saves, AC and hit points.



The numbers assume
Gain 4 strength over Stu-Pendous
Use of Bulls Strength potion (free action with pouch of tulz)
Cleric casts Prayer
Add =4/+4 for 5th level Bard with Widseths.
Use of Power Attack
Use of Runestone to add +1 damage
A single target (this will be the vast majority of rooms given recent history)

HUMAN FIGHTER
My current +25 to hit and +27 to damage becomes +25/+36
In the VTD realm I will hit 90% of the time on any monster with less than a 37 AC. I will Crit 20% of the time. I will miss for no damage 10% of the time. Normal damage 70% of the time.

Minimum Normal Damage is 52 .
Average Normal Damage is 56.5
Max Normal Damage is 63

Minimum Crit damage 104
Average Crit damage 113
Max Crit damage 126

Over time that will average out to 69.3 per round.
Dwarf gets 2 less strength to start but gets 3X Crit on 20, 2X crit on 19. Over time an average of 74.4
My Dwarf Fighter using Thor's will average 64.2 per round over time.


Some Wizards are saying they need 100 damage to be "competitive."

TELL ME AGAIN HOW THIS IS "OVERPOWERED."


My analysis of the version we thought was wrapped up. Adding every buff under the sun, an average of 69 damage per round under perfectly ideal conditions


That does seem low.

Would it be better with crit 19-20 x3 or with something more like +5 melee damage?

Not someone who has ever played Fighter so I don't know what you'd all need


Well people got fixated on the stat numbers rather than the outcomes. I

Two solutions

Put 5 STR on the Relic and add another 2 on the Legendary People seemed fine with the legendary.

Move the expanded crit back to 18-20.

Harlax wrote:

OrionW wrote: Likely it should have been crit on a 17 like the rogue legendary. Definitely a missed opportunity.


We lost the initially proposed 18-20 crit early on. IMHO were lucky go get the 19-20 back.

I was curious so I ran some numbers on changes to the crit range.

18 to 20 only raises the average to 75.6.That's an increase of 6.3.

17 - 20 only raised the average to 81.9. That's a increase of 12.6

Not exactly earth shaking. Again, it assumes that all the factors listed are maxed out.

D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #14

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: I have taken my current build and projected what I can expect. I did make one change, swapping Welfors for Thors. I don't have Welfors, but it represents the best case scenario for one handed weapon. Other builds will be somewhat better for damage, but with tradeoffs lilke lower saves, AC and hit points.



The numbers assume
Gain 4 strength over Stu-Pendous
Use of Bulls Strength potion (free action with pouch of tulz)
Cleric casts Prayer
Add =4/+4 for 5th level Bard with Widseths.
Use of Power Attack
Use of Runestone to add +1 damage
A single target (this will be the vast majority of rooms given recent history)

HUMAN FIGHTER
My current +25 to hit and +27 to damage becomes +25/+36
In the VTD realm I will hit 90% of the time on any monster with less than a 37 AC. I will Crit 20% of the time. I will miss for no damage 10% of the time. Normal damage 70% of the time.

Minimum Normal Damage is 52 .
Average Normal Damage is 56.5
Max Normal Damage is 63

Minimum Crit damage 104
Average Crit damage 113
Max Crit damage 126

Over time that will average out to 69.3 per round.
Dwarf gets 2 less strength to start but gets 3X Crit on 20, 2X crit on 19. Over time an average of 74.4
My Dwarf Fighter using Thor's will average 64.2 per round over time.


Some Wizards are saying they need 100 damage to be "competitive."

TELL ME AGAIN HOW THIS IS "OVERPOWERED."


My analysis of the version we thought was wrapped up. Adding every buff under the sun, an average of 69 damage per round under perfectly ideal conditions


That does seem low.

Would it be better with crit 19-20 x3 or with something more like +5 melee damage?

Not someone who has ever played Fighter so I don't know what you'd all need


Dwarf already gets x3 on a 20.
Last edit: by Lequinian.
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #15

  • Harlax
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Lequinian wrote: Dwarf already gets x3 on a 20.


And gets 2 less STR base versus Human. That combined with 3x crit raised the average about 5 points.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #16

Fighter needs to go back, at least at legendary. A bump from Relic seems fine though. Maybe make the legendary +2 Str?

Any chance the mage name goes back to Slytherette? Much more sinister/exciting, IMO.
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My token shop/trade thread: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #17

Harlax wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: I have taken my current build and projected what I can expect. I did make one change, swapping Welfors for Thors. I don't have Welfors, but it represents the best case scenario for one handed weapon. Other builds will be somewhat better for damage, but with tradeoffs lilke lower saves, AC and hit points.



The numbers assume
Gain 4 strength over Stu-Pendous
Use of Bulls Strength potion (free action with pouch of tulz)
Cleric casts Prayer
Add =4/+4 for 5th level Bard with Widseths.
Use of Power Attack
Use of Runestone to add +1 damage
A single target (this will be the vast majority of rooms given recent history)

HUMAN FIGHTER
My current +25 to hit and +27 to damage becomes +25/+36
In the VTD realm I will hit 90% of the time on any monster with less than a 37 AC. I will Crit 20% of the time. I will miss for no damage 10% of the time. Normal damage 70% of the time.

Minimum Normal Damage is 52 .
Average Normal Damage is 56.5
Max Normal Damage is 63

Minimum Crit damage 104
Average Crit damage 113
Max Crit damage 126

Over time that will average out to 69.3 per round.
Dwarf gets 2 less strength to start but gets 3X Crit on 20, 2X crit on 19. Over time an average of 74.4
My Dwarf Fighter using Thor's will average 64.2 per round over time.


Some Wizards are saying they need 100 damage to be "competitive."

TELL ME AGAIN HOW THIS IS "OVERPOWERED."


My analysis of the version we thought was wrapped up. Adding every buff under the sun, an average of 69 damage per round under perfectly ideal conditions


That does seem low.

Would it be better with crit 19-20 x3 or with something more like +5 melee damage?

Not someone who has ever played Fighter so I don't know what you'd all need


Well people got fixated on the stat numbers rather than the outcomes. I

Two solutions

Put 5TR on the Relic and add another 2 on the Legendary

Move the expanded crit back to 18-20.

Harlax wrote:

OrionW wrote: Likely it should have been crit on a 17 like the rogue legendary. Definitely a missed opportunity.


We lost the initially proposed 18-20 crit early on. IMHO were lucky go get the 19-20 back.

I was curious so I ran some numbers on changes to the crit range.

18 to 20 only raises the average to 75.6.That's an increase of 6.3.

17 - 20 only raised the average to 81.9. That's a increase of 12.6

Not exactly earth shaking. Again, it assumes that all the factors listed are maxed out.


Wizards
Barbarians
Monks
Melee Rangers
Rogues
Druids
.
.
.
Fighters

Ok then.

:(
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #18

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: Fighter needs to go back, at least at legendary. A bump from Relic seems fine though.

Anybchance the mage name goes back to Slytherette?

Slithigarrette.

And no. The theme seemed to be Quessor’s has a familiar and spellbook, Slithigarrette has a spellbook but no familiar, Ashenne is mad.
I play Wizard.
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #19

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: I have taken my current build and projected what I can expect. I did make one change, swapping Welfors for Thors. I don't have Welfors, but it represents the best case scenario for one handed weapon. Other builds will be somewhat better for damage, but with tradeoffs lilke lower saves, AC and hit points.



The numbers assume
Gain 4 strength over Stu-Pendous
Use of Bulls Strength potion (free action with pouch of tulz)
Cleric casts Prayer
Add =4/+4 for 5th level Bard with Widseths.
Use of Power Attack
Use of Runestone to add +1 damage
A single target (this will be the vast majority of rooms given recent history)

HUMAN FIGHTER
My current +25 to hit and +27 to damage becomes +25/+36
In the VTD realm I will hit 90% of the time on any monster with less than a 37 AC. I will Crit 20% of the time. I will miss for no damage 10% of the time. Normal damage 70% of the time.

Minimum Normal Damage is 52 .
Average Normal Damage is 56.5
Max Normal Damage is 63

Minimum Crit damage 104
Average Crit damage 113
Max Crit damage 126

Over time that will average out to 69.3 per round.
Dwarf gets 2 less strength to start but gets 3X Crit on 20, 2X crit on 19. Over time an average of 74.4
My Dwarf Fighter using Thor's will average 64.2 per round over time.


Some Wizards are saying they need 100 damage to be "competitive."

TELL ME AGAIN HOW THIS IS "OVERPOWERED."


My analysis of the version we thought was wrapped up. Adding every buff under the sun, an average of 69 damage per round under perfectly ideal conditions


That does seem low.

Would it be better with crit 19-20 x3 or with something more like +5 melee damage?

Not someone who has ever played Fighter so I don't know what you'd all need


Well people got fixated on the stat numbers rather than the outcomes. I

Two solutions

Put 5TR on the Relic and add another 2 on the Legendary

Move the expanded crit back to 18-20.

Harlax wrote:

OrionW wrote: Likely it should have been crit on a 17 like the rogue legendary. Definitely a missed opportunity.


We lost the initially proposed 18-20 crit early on. IMHO were lucky go get the 19-20 back.

I was curious so I ran some numbers on changes to the crit range.

18 to 20 only raises the average to 75.6.That's an increase of 6.3.

17 - 20 only raised the average to 81.9. That's a increase of 12.6

Not exactly earth shaking. Again, it assumes that all the factors listed are maxed out.


Wizards
Barbarians
Monks
Melee Rangers
Rogues
Druids
.
.
.
Fighters

Ok then.

:(


Thor's users.
The topic has been locked.

SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #20

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: Dwarf already gets x3 on a 20.


And gets 2 less STR base versus Human. That combined with 3x crit raised the average about 5 points.


Yup. I was responding to this...

Would it be better with crit 19-20 x3


To point out that DF wouldn’t really be getting much by the suggestion.

That said we’ll need a ruling in tokendb on whether a natural 19 is x3 for DF. (Presumably not)
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #21

  • Harlax
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edwin wrote:

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Harlax wrote: I have taken my current build and projected what I can expect. I did make one change, swapping Welfors for Thors. I don't have Welfors, but it represents the best case scenario for one handed weapon. Other builds will be somewhat better for damage, but with tradeoffs lilke lower saves, AC and hit points.



The numbers assume
Gain 4 strength over Stu-Pendous
Use of Bulls Strength potion (free action with pouch of tulz)
Cleric casts Prayer
Add =4/+4 for 5th level Bard with Widseths.
Use of Power Attack
Use of Runestone to add +1 damage
A single target (this will be the vast majority of rooms given recent history)

HUMAN FIGHTER
My current +25 to hit and +27 to damage becomes +25/+36
In the VTD realm I will hit 90% of the time on any monster with less than a 37 AC. I will Crit 20% of the time. I will miss for no damage 10% of the time. Normal damage 70% of the time.

Minimum Normal Damage is 52 .
Average Normal Damage is 56.5
Max Normal Damage is 63

Minimum Crit damage 104
Average Crit damage 113
Max Crit damage 126

Over time that will average out to 69.3 per round.
Dwarf gets 2 less strength to start but gets 3X Crit on 20, 2X crit on 19. Over time an average of 74.4
My Dwarf Fighter using Thor's will average 64.2 per round over time.


Some Wizards are saying they need 100 damage to be "competitive."

TELL ME AGAIN HOW THIS IS "OVERPOWERED."


My analysis of the version we thought was wrapped up. Adding every buff under the sun, an average of 69 damage per round under perfectly ideal conditions


That does seem low.

Would it be better with crit 19-20 x3 or with something more like +5 melee damage?

Not someone who has ever played Fighter so I don't know what you'd all need


Well people got fixated on the stat numbers rather than the outcomes. I

Two solutions

Put 5TR on the Relic and add another 2 on the Legendary

Move the expanded crit back to 18-20.

Harlax wrote:

OrionW wrote: Likely it should have been crit on a 17 like the rogue legendary. Definitely a missed opportunity.


We lost the initially proposed 18-20 crit early on. IMHO were lucky go get the 19-20 back.

I was curious so I ran some numbers on changes to the crit range.

18 to 20 only raises the average to 75.6.That's an increase of 6.3.

17 - 20 only raised the average to 81.9. That's a increase of 12.6

Not exactly earth shaking. Again, it assumes that all the factors listed are maxed out.


Wizards
Barbarians
Monks
Melee Rangers
Rogues
Druids
.
.
.
Fighters

Ok then.

:(


Thor's users.


My analysis assumed use of Welfors, not Thors. It’s in the first paragraph.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #22

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Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: Dwarf already gets x3 on a 20.


And gets 2 less STR base versus Human. That combined with 3x crit raised the average about 5 points.


Yup. I was responding to this...

Would it be better with crit 19-20 x3


To point out that DF wouldn’t really be getting much by the suggestion.

That said we’ll need a ruling in tokendb on whether a natural 19 is x3 for DF. (Presumably not)


That would require a change on the class card. I’m not advocating for that.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #23

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: Dwarf already gets x3 on a 20.


And gets 2 less STR base versus Human. That combined with 3x crit raised the average about 5 points.


Yup. I was responding to this...

Would it be better with crit 19-20 x3


To point out that DF wouldn’t really be getting much by the suggestion.

That said we’ll need a ruling in tokendb on whether a natural 19 is x3 for DF. (Presumably not)


I thought that they'd stack per the multiple sources of critical ruling in the PHB automatically making the Dwarf a 4x if the legendary granted x3
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SUPER Final Transmuted Images <Last Chance! 1 month 3 weeks ago #24

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: Dwarf already gets x3 on a 20.


And gets 2 less STR base versus Human. That combined with 3x crit raised the average about 5 points.


Yup. I was responding to this...

Would it be better with crit 19-20 x3


To point out that DF wouldn’t really be getting much by the suggestion.

That said we’ll need a ruling in tokendb on whether a natural 19 is x3 for DF. (Presumably not)


I thought that they'd stack per the multiple sources of critical ruling in the PHB automatically making the Dwarf a 4x if the legendary granted x3


For DF a 19 if it hits has a crit range defined by the token. So x2.

For DF a 20 and they are 5th level has a crit range defined by 20 plus the token. So x4.

This is how I have been reading it and factored into my inputs.
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