Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images!

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #25

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm going to take one more stab at an idea for the Wizard Medallion - and if happens to be received with universal acclimation by Wizards perhaps TBTP would consider it seriously.

Let me take you back, way, way back to August 21st, when horse and buggy was the common mode of transportation and this was the Wizard transmute:



At that time, Wizards did not coalesce around this token largely because they could not agree about how the Familiar aspect should be.

Since then, the Spellbook UR concept has been removed. (Returning to a design process near you in 2022?)

Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.

If TPTB are concerned that these extra spells are going to get bogged down with a bunch of confusing interactions, have them come from the token itself like Ring of Spell Storing - "May cast 1 (relic) or 2 (legendary) spells of each level for free as a free action." That would eliminate cheese like trying to mix this in with Ring of Power for a free action cast of a level 1 spell each room or having Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise being used to generate more free action spells.

This has something for everyone, I think:

Doesn't have awkward power differences for Elf Wizard and Wizard.
Plenty 'o free actions for former MMM users.
An extra charm slot for Charm Necklace users who used to use MeC.
Might shake up builds for Cabal Set users.
MeC still has flavor and dramatic downside of 10 HP per use.
MeC like effects not getting expanded or improved, which may be endorsed by Dr. Uid :P


For Wizards, I invite you to consider - would you rather have what's described here, or what's currently in the first post? Because we're running out of runway to coalesce around something - and this one has the advantage of being very similar to something that was on the table in the past.


I'm more or less OK with the one currently in Jeff's post #1 of this thread.

But I would much rather have what I described in this post.

What say you?


I would be OK with this if the Legendary provided one of the perks we'd seen in other revisions

19-20 x3 crit on slides
+x to successful skill checks
MEC effect applies to all spells in combat round, not just 1


Legendary tokens generally provide something beyond purely the step up from Relic. For the class specific ones at least. Your current suggestion does not give us any Legendary perk.

Maybe just let Jeff select one.


I'm honestly fine with either design but I think the current design is stronger than the suggestion without the bump to MEC affecting both spells.


Or maybe +2 charm slots?
Fall down......Go boom!
The topic has been locked.

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #26

Could we please limit the comments on the Wizard token design to Wizard players so that we can hopefully find a consensus of accepted design without devolving into a spellcaster class fight again. At least for this iteration as we don't even know if there's a consensus among the Wizards on if they like a specific design. And we are absolutely in the 11th hour of design right now.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #27

Adam Guay wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm going to take one more stab at an idea for the Wizard Medallion - and if happens to be received with universal acclimation by Wizards perhaps TBTP would consider it seriously.

Let me take you back, way, way back to August 21st, when horse and buggy was the common mode of transportation and this was the Wizard transmute:



At that time, Wizards did not coalesce around this token largely because they could not agree about how the Familiar aspect should be.

Since then, the Spellbook UR concept has been removed. (Returning to a design process near you in 2022?)

Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.

If TPTB are concerned that these extra spells are going to get bogged down with a bunch of confusing interactions, have them come from the token itself like Ring of Spell Storing - "May cast 1 (relic) or 2 (legendary) spells of each level for free as a free action." That would eliminate cheese like trying to mix this in with Ring of Power for a free action cast of a level 1 spell each room or having Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise being used to generate more free action spells.

This has something for everyone, I think:

Doesn't have awkward power differences for Elf Wizard and Wizard.
Plenty 'o free actions for former MMM users.
An extra charm slot for Charm Necklace users who used to use MeC.
Might shake up builds for Cabal Set users.
MeC still has flavor and dramatic downside of 10 HP per use.
MeC like effects not getting expanded or improved, which may be endorsed by Dr. Uid :P


For Wizards, I invite you to consider - would you rather have what's described here, or what's currently in the first post? Because we're running out of runway to coalesce around something - and this one has the advantage of being very similar to something that was on the table in the past.


I'm more or less OK with the one currently in Jeff's post #1 of this thread.

But I would much rather have what I described in this post.

What say you?


I would be OK with this if the Legendary provided one of the perks we'd seen in other revisions

19-20 x3 crit on slides
+x to successful skill checks
MEC effect applies to all spells in combat round, not just 1


Legendary tokens generally provide something beyond purely the step up from Relic. For the class specific ones at least. Your current suggestion does not give us any Legendary perk.

Maybe just let Jeff select one.


I'm honestly fine with either design but I think the current design is stronger than the suggestion without the bump to MEC affecting both spells.


Or maybe +2 charm slots?


considering that no legendary class necklace has ever given a slot expansion, and the fact this has been suggested several times over the design window, never to be implemented. I am going to assume that slot expanders are not on the table for class necklace design.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #28

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm going to take one more stab at an idea for the Wizard Medallion - and if happens to be received with universal acclimation by Wizards perhaps TBTP would consider it seriously.

Let me take you back, way, way back to August 21st, when horse and buggy was the common mode of transportation and this was the Wizard transmute:



At that time, Wizards did not coalesce around this token largely because they could not agree about how the Familiar aspect should be.

Since then, the Spellbook UR concept has been removed. (Returning to a design process near you in 2022?)

Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.

If TPTB are concerned that these extra spells are going to get bogged down with a bunch of confusing interactions, have them come from the token itself like Ring of Spell Storing - "May cast 1 (relic) or 2 (legendary) spells of each level for free as a free action." That would eliminate cheese like trying to mix this in with Ring of Power for a free action cast of a level 1 spell each room or having Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise being used to generate more free action spells.

This has something for everyone, I think:

Doesn't have awkward power differences for Elf Wizard and Wizard.
Plenty 'o free actions for former MMM users.
An extra charm slot for Charm Necklace users who used to use MeC.
Might shake up builds for Cabal Set users.
MeC still has flavor and dramatic downside of 10 HP per use.
MeC like effects not getting expanded or improved, which may be endorsed by Dr. Uid :P


For Wizards, I invite you to consider - would you rather have what's described here, or what's currently in the first post? Because we're running out of runway to coalesce around something - and this one has the advantage of being very similar to something that was on the table in the past.


I'm more or less OK with the one currently in Jeff's post #1 of this thread.

But I would much rather have what I described in this post.

What say you?


I would be OK with this if the Legendary provided one of the perks we'd seen in other revisions

19-20 x3 crit on slides
+x to successful skill checks
MEC effect applies to all spells in combat round, not just 1


Legendary tokens generally provide something beyond purely the step up from Relic. For the class specific ones at least. Your current suggestion does not give us any Legendary perk.

Maybe just let Jeff select one.


I'm honestly fine with either design but I think the current design is stronger than the suggestion without the bump to MEC affecting both spells.


Or maybe +2 charm slots?


considering that no legendary class necklace has ever given a slot expansion, and the fact this has been suggested several times over the design window, never to be implemented. I am going to assume that slot expanders are not on the table for class necklace design.


Only reason I'm suggesting this is we are not sure if we still can equip mad evokers of it is built into the relic. I would like to see us still be able to "double up" again since we have our hit points reduced it would restrict the total amount of uses.
Fall down......Go boom!
The topic has been locked.

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #29

Adam Guay wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm going to take one more stab at an idea for the Wizard Medallion - and if happens to be received with universal acclimation by Wizards perhaps TBTP would consider it seriously.

Let me take you back, way, way back to August 21st, when horse and buggy was the common mode of transportation and this was the Wizard transmute:



At that time, Wizards did not coalesce around this token largely because they could not agree about how the Familiar aspect should be.

Since then, the Spellbook UR concept has been removed. (Returning to a design process near you in 2022?)

Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.

If TPTB are concerned that these extra spells are going to get bogged down with a bunch of confusing interactions, have them come from the token itself like Ring of Spell Storing - "May cast 1 (relic) or 2 (legendary) spells of each level for free as a free action." That would eliminate cheese like trying to mix this in with Ring of Power for a free action cast of a level 1 spell each room or having Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise being used to generate more free action spells.

This has something for everyone, I think:

Doesn't have awkward power differences for Elf Wizard and Wizard.
Plenty 'o free actions for former MMM users.
An extra charm slot for Charm Necklace users who used to use MeC.
Might shake up builds for Cabal Set users.
MeC still has flavor and dramatic downside of 10 HP per use.
MeC like effects not getting expanded or improved, which may be endorsed by Dr. Uid :P


For Wizards, I invite you to consider - would you rather have what's described here, or what's currently in the first post? Because we're running out of runway to coalesce around something - and this one has the advantage of being very similar to something that was on the table in the past.


I'm more or less OK with the one currently in Jeff's post #1 of this thread.

But I would much rather have what I described in this post.

What say you?


I would be OK with this if the Legendary provided one of the perks we'd seen in other revisions

19-20 x3 crit on slides
+x to successful skill checks
MEC effect applies to all spells in combat round, not just 1


Legendary tokens generally provide something beyond purely the step up from Relic. For the class specific ones at least. Your current suggestion does not give us any Legendary perk.

Maybe just let Jeff select one.


I'm honestly fine with either design but I think the current design is stronger than the suggestion without the bump to MEC affecting both spells.


Or maybe +2 charm slots?


considering that no legendary class necklace has ever given a slot expansion, and the fact this has been suggested several times over the design window, never to be implemented. I am going to assume that slot expanders are not on the table for class necklace design.


Only reason I'm suggesting this is we are not sure if we still can equip mad evokers of it is built into the relic. I would like to see us still be able to "double up" again since we have our hit points reduced it would restrict the total amount of uses.


The thread reply you are posting to is not the current design. It's a suggestion for reverting to a previous design.

Either way I don't see it being likely any version of the Wizard necklace will include additional charm slots. It's been suggested and never made it into any version of the token despite being suggested every design cycle.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #30

Thanks from a grateful cleric! And best of luck to our wizard friends still hard at work... from the sidelines it looks like there have been a lot of good elements in the various drafts, I hope you can get them finalized in the right combination.
dmrzzz's trade thread

Yes, my AC is lower than the Wizard's. No regrets!
The topic has been locked.

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #31

Previous polls and much discussion has shown that there has not been anywhere of an even somewhat favored solution.

I personally like the current version if one were to do a spell damage bump of +5 for relic and +8 for legendary.

This design leaves it up to the player to decide whether they want a faster burn or slower burn and provides both styles with a damage bump. The damage bump helps with loss of current neck slot item.

The longer burn is one spell per turn and you can cast longer. The FA allows one to cast a FA and do melee or range physical attacks if a wizard so desires to gear that way.

The faster burn is two spells per turn and you run out of spells quicker. The FA allows this if a wizard wands to gear that way.

The item I was attempting to illustrate with previous versions of the 2021 tokens was that due to interaction of the various tokens (swapping, more spells as free actions and use of high skill bonus) quickly worked itself to an endgame solution that would reduce the variety of wizard.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #32

Ok, so wow. Updates released in the middle of the night and we already have nearly 30 posts. Only have time to skim read them. I think I'm ok with the latest version, but have some questions. Yes, I would be ok with Matthew's version, mostly because I probably don't need the Cabal set with that version and can offset slot losses with those.

Onto questions.
1. If I start out casting a 2nd or 3rd level spell, but swap it out for a lower level spell, can I still cast it as a FA? I hope the answer is yes.
2. Similar question, if I use Crown of Expertise to cast a 3rd or 2nd level spell, can I cast it as a FA?

I'm assuming the hp caps are there to account for unintended consequences as they are close to current high end limits. We're back to FA spells leading to more overall damage, but total damage that can be done in a single round is not impacted that much. Right now, when I cast a fireball I'm getting 20+20(MEC)+32(spell bonus) for 72 damage. With the added eldritch item next year that would go to 73. So I could lose 3 hp of bonus damage. I can probably dump lenses of focus to add Psyfere's and dump Arcane Belt to add Orions Belt and gain some slots back. Yes, I'll lose a little damage on 1st level spells, but very minor compared to what I'm losing with those lost slots. Cabal set is still needed, otherwise I really gain very little.

I guess the bottom line is that it's ok, but not exciting. Sorry, Jeff. I can see you're trying really, really hard to come up with the right formula to balance the game and excite players. It's just really, really hard with a class that tends to be a bit complex.

Random thoughts. Putting a damage cap on wizard spells seem like an admission that power creep is now an issue. It opens the door to a new tactic and I fully expect and want caps to be put on other classes or I just continue fall behind. Putting caps on damage will probably irritate some players who like to play with builds and squeeze every point of damage they can. There's no point to doing that with this limit. Once you hit the cap (and I think we're already there), you're done. The cap also limits future token designs because now they need to take the cap into account. What's the point of future spell damage tokens if we're already at the cap?
The topic has been locked.

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #33

Dave wrote: Ok, so wow. Updates released in the middle of the night and we already have nearly 30 posts. Only have time to skim read them. I think I'm ok with the latest version, but have some questions. Yes, I would be ok with Matthew's version, mostly because I probably don't need the Cabal set with that version and can offset slot losses with those.

Onto questions.
1. If I start out casting a 2nd or 3rd level spell, but swap it out for a lower level spell, can I still cast it as a FA? I hope the answer is yes.
2. Similar question, if I use Crown of Expertise to cast a 3rd or 2nd level spell, can I cast it as a FA?

I'm assuming the hp caps are there to account for unintended consequences as they are close to current high end limits. We're back to FA spells leading to more overall damage, but total damage that can be done in a single round is not impacted that much. Right now, when I cast a fireball I'm getting 20+20(MEC)+32(spell bonus) for 72 damage. With the added eldritch item next year that would go to 73. So I could lose 3 hp of bonus damage. I can probably dump lenses of focus to add Psyfere's and dump Arcane Belt to add Orions Belt and gain some slots back. Yes, I'll lose a little damage on 1st level spells, but very minor compared to what I'm losing with those lost slots. Cabal set is still needed, otherwise I really gain very little.

I guess the bottom line is that it's ok, but not exciting. Sorry, Jeff. I can see you're trying really, really hard to come up with the right formula to balance the game and excite players. It's just really, really hard with a class that tends to be a bit complex.

Random thoughts. Putting a damage cap on wizard spells seem like an admission that power creep is now an issue. It opens the door to a new tactic and I fully expect and want caps to be put on other classes or I just continue fall behind. Putting caps on damage will probably irritate some players who like to play with builds and squeeze every point of damage they can. There's no point to doing that with this limit. Once you hit the cap (and I think we're already there), you're done. The cap also limits future token designs because now they need to take the cap into account. What's the point of future spell damage tokens if we're already at the cap?


Are you referring to the max hp on the relic/legendary cap as a maximum damage cap? I read it as max hp the character is allowed to have.
Fall down......Go boom!
The topic has been locked.

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #34

Adam Guay wrote:

Dave wrote: Ok, so wow. Updates released in the middle of the night and we already have nearly 30 posts. Only have time to skim read them. I think I'm ok with the latest version, but have some questions. Yes, I would be ok with Matthew's version, mostly because I probably don't need the Cabal set with that version and can offset slot losses with those.

Onto questions.
1. If I start out casting a 2nd or 3rd level spell, but swap it out for a lower level spell, can I still cast it as a FA? I hope the answer is yes.
2. Similar question, if I use Crown of Expertise to cast a 3rd or 2nd level spell, can I cast it as a FA?

I'm assuming the hp caps are there to account for unintended consequences as they are close to current high end limits. We're back to FA spells leading to more overall damage, but total damage that can be done in a single round is not impacted that much. Right now, when I cast a fireball I'm getting 20+20(MEC)+32(spell bonus) for 72 damage. With the added eldritch item next year that would go to 73. So I could lose 3 hp of bonus damage. I can probably dump lenses of focus to add Psyfere's and dump Arcane Belt to add Orions Belt and gain some slots back. Yes, I'll lose a little damage on 1st level spells, but very minor compared to what I'm losing with those lost slots. Cabal set is still needed, otherwise I really gain very little.

I guess the bottom line is that it's ok, but not exciting. Sorry, Jeff. I can see you're trying really, really hard to come up with the right formula to balance the game and excite players. It's just really, really hard with a class that tends to be a bit complex.

Random thoughts. Putting a damage cap on wizard spells seem like an admission that power creep is now an issue. It opens the door to a new tactic and I fully expect and want caps to be put on other classes or I just continue fall behind. Putting caps on damage will probably irritate some players who like to play with builds and squeeze every point of damage they can. There's no point to doing that with this limit. Once you hit the cap (and I think we're already there), you're done. The cap also limits future token designs because now they need to take the cap into account. What's the point of future spell damage tokens if we're already at the cap?


Are you referring to the max hp on the relic/legendary cap as a maximum damage cap? I read it as max hp the character is allowed to have.


Well, that would be an entirely different approach and kind of silly if you ask me. I guess we definitely need some clarification. Reducing my starting hp means nothing to me. I went into a nightmare run last year with less than 10hp and made it to room 7. Yes, I died 7 times, but it was only due to intentionally killing myself. Consumables were needed to ressurect me, but it was fun. After dying 4 times in room 7, I just let myself stay dead.
The topic has been locked.

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #35

I don't like the idea of a HP cap. It will make things harder as the years go by from a game design standpoint. Years from now as monsters need to be beefed up to account for power creep and do more damage the HP limit may be too low
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Albert Einstein
The topic has been locked.

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #36

Rob F wrote: I don't like the idea of a HP cap. It will make things harder as the years go by from a game design standpoint. Years from now as monsters need to be beefed up to account for power creep and do more damage the HP limit may be too low

HP per con level could be reduced, though I don’t know how to say that easily on a token.

It wouldn’t be a cap, but it would be reduced
The topic has been locked.
Time to create page: 0.288 seconds