TOPIC: FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images!

Dave wrote: More random thoughts. These are more gut feelings. I could probably try to run some numbers, but am getting tired and coming to the conclusion that numbers can be manipulated to prove almost anyone's point if they try.

Jeff stated that he wanted these class specific legendaries to feel Epic to those players using them (that's not a quote, just sort of what I remember). Right now, I'm not feeling that way and part of the problem has just been that we've had 15+ years of piling on some very good tokens and now we're backed into a corner where giving up the neck slot for a wizard has to be pretty substantial, or its going to leave a bad taste in the mouth of many.

So what do wizards want? I can only speak for myself. It falls into 3 categories and I've stated these before.

Damage per round - If you're using all the token available to wizards, this is not that far out of line today. Of course that assumes you're using MEC or MoMM and not all wizards like or use those. The fastest way to raise this total is through FA spells. I would add those sparingly as we already have access to 4-5 of those through Cabal set and RoSS. I can see adding maybe 1-2 more with the legendary, but use caution. Yeah, if you give us 4 or 5 more FA spells our average total per round will be around 100. Is that out of line? Depends upon perspective (see 2nd point).

Damage in a Single Round (Room 7) - I have yet to see a proposal that does much here. A BIS wizard/elf wizard can get up to around 130 pts of damage right now in a single round. I think several classes can beat this, some by a substantial margin. It would be nice if something could be done with once per game effect to give us a substantial boost. Yeah, let us do 175-200 damage in a single round. Others can. Why not us? And this is why we don't feel bad if our average damage seems high, it's because we feel blocked from getting to those upper crit levels others can achieve.

Fun Factor - When spellbooks and familiars were in play, this could have totally replaced a need to do much in the way of spell damage. Paladins get Grace. Barbarians get Fury. Isn't there something new or creative for wizards? Or is all we're left with is wanting more damage? I still totally support waiting on spellbooks and familiars until they can be done right, however...

This is where we are. Without a fun factor, all that's left is raising spell damage. I don't think average damage is radically broken today. It could use a moderate boost, but I don't think it's way out of line. But whatever you do, it better be better than 3 really good UR charms or a lot of people aren't going to even want it. Sorry, but that's where we're at. Whatever is decided, its not going to please everyone.

And personally, I'm against hp caps whether its for damage or actual character hp. Why would you limit a wizard hp? The only way to boost hp is to sacrifice spell damage anyway. The balancing act is part of the fun of putting a build together.

Just wanted to say I support your thoughts on this

Fiddy wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: This is probably too late, but I want to bring it up so people are aware.

Fighter relic:
+7 strength
+3 dex
+4 con
melee shield adds to reflex saves

compare that to ranger relic:
+4 con
+6 ranged damage
use a druid scroll 1/game

Seems to me that the Fighter relic is way above the ranger relic.

The fighter legendary seems fine if the relic is toned down. Just eliminating the +3 dex I think would do it.

How is +3 or +4 melee or thrown damage "way above" +6 ranged damage?

And as has been explained through multiple threads the DEX is mostly there to keep allowing Thor's Hammer to be wielded.

Ooo! Good point on Thor's. I stand corrected. Not "way above". I should have stated "Doing more things than a similar power level relic".

The + to strength is +3.5 to hit and +3.5 to damage. Thus, in my view, a +7 benefit. This would be on par with the +6 damage to range, I feel. The +4 cons are equal. Ranger gets a scroll 1/game, fighter gets more reflex saves. Fighters come out ahead on this. Fighters get +3 dex. Fighters also come out ahead.

Except, at the token levels we're talking about, the to-hit difference is unlikely to come into play (at least on melee).

Reading a scroll is something you can choose to do every game. There are many runs Fighters never get targeted so their ACs do not matter (I've gone years not being targeted outside of Grind). And similarly there may be 0 reflex saves in a dungeon. There will be times the Reflex bonus matters, but you can make the use of the Druid scroll matter every run.

Thanks for your thoughts. I can see and understand your viewpoint. I don't know yet if that changes my mind, but at least this was discussed and that's what I wanted. So again, thanks.

Matt Goodman wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: This is probably too late, but I want to bring it up so people are aware.

Fighter relic:
+7 strength
+3 dex
+4 con
melee shield adds to reflex saves

compare that to ranger relic:
+4 con
+6 ranged damage
use a druid scroll 1/game

Seems to me that the Fighter relic is way above the ranger relic.

The fighter legendary seems fine if the relic is toned down. Just eliminating the +3 dex I think would do it.

How is +3 or +4 melee or thrown damage "way above" +6 ranged damage?

And as has been explained through multiple threads the DEX is mostly there to keep allowing Thor's Hammer to be wielded.

Ooo! Good point on Thor's. I stand corrected. Not "way above". I should have stated "Doing more things than a similar power level relic".

The + to strength is +3.5 to hit and +3.5 to damage. Thus, in my view, a +7 benefit. This would be on par with the +6 damage to range, I feel. The +4 cons are equal. Ranger gets a scroll 1/game, fighter gets more reflex saves. Fighters come out ahead on this. Fighters get +3 dex. Fighters also come out ahead.

The fighter relic is better than the ranger relic. This is to compensate for the ranger being better than the fighter. Fighters do not get enough love, especially human fighter. The stat bonuses are ludicrous, but that's just where the game has gone with stat bonuses, damage bonuses, save bonuses, and whatnot. I can just wave my hands in the air like I just don't care on fighters and clerics getting a lot more powerful, especially through their class transmute tokens.

As for wizard, I would prefer relic be something like +4 Con, +6 dmg with spells, wands, and polymorph. Legendary be +5 Con, +9 dmg with spells, wands, and polymorph, Replication (any single target spell including ones only usable by caster can target up to three targets), Override (your spells always succeed, i.e. slid spells always hit and your spells cannot be cancelled/nullified/prevented, however monster abilities can reduce damage by up to 50%). But, who would be so mad as to propose totally different mechanics at this point?

Ian Lee wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: This is probably too late, but I want to bring it up so people are aware.

Fighter relic:
+7 strength
+3 dex
+4 con
melee shield adds to reflex saves

compare that to ranger relic:
+4 con
+6 ranged damage
use a druid scroll 1/game

Seems to me that the Fighter relic is way above the ranger relic.

The fighter legendary seems fine if the relic is toned down. Just eliminating the +3 dex I think would do it.

How is +3 or +4 melee or thrown damage "way above" +6 ranged damage?

And as has been explained through multiple threads the DEX is mostly there to keep allowing Thor's Hammer to be wielded.

Ooo! Good point on Thor's. I stand corrected. Not "way above". I should have stated "Doing more things than a similar power level relic".

The + to strength is +3.5 to hit and +3.5 to damage. Thus, in my view, a +7 benefit. This would be on par with the +6 damage to range, I feel. The +4 cons are equal. Ranger gets a scroll 1/game, fighter gets more reflex saves. Fighters come out ahead on this. Fighters get +3 dex. Fighters also come out ahead.

The fighter relic is better than the ranger relic. This is to compensate for the ranger being better than the fighter. Fighters do not get enough love, especially human fighter. The stat bonuses are ludicrous, but that's just where the game has gone with stat bonuses, damage bonuses, save bonuses, and whatnot. I can just wave my hands in the air like I just don't care on fighters and clerics getting a lot more powerful, especially through their class transmute tokens.

As for wizard, I would prefer relic be something like +4 Con, +6 dmg with spells, wands, and polymorph. Legendary be +5 Con, +9 dmg with spells, wands, and polymorph, Replication (any single target spell including ones only usable by caster can target up to three targets), Override (your spells always succeed, i.e. slid spells always hit and your spells cannot be cancelled/nullified/prevented, however monster abilities can reduce damage by up to 50%). But, who would be so mad as to propose totally different mechanics at this point?

There's been several suggestions of auto succeed on slide spells or skill checks and the response has been slightly more negative than positive as many players feel removing skill checks makes the class less interactive and rewarding. (I am among those who feel that way)

Wizards have also generally requested that no consumable items be integrated into the Legendary. And if replacing the MoMM neck with the Legendary that removes the one source of wand usage from Wizards so any boost to spells and wands would be wasted.

And yeah, at this point suggesting a change to the core design is going to do a lot more harm than good.

It's getting very late, but still think there should have been something new for the wizard legendary

Example
Mystic Blast, 2/game (or 1/game) a wizard can take 2 standard actions in a single round, but the wizard may not take any standard action in the next round (need to recuperate).

This would allow a wizard to strategically wait for a moment where they could also use a FA and cast 3 spells in one round. That could get us up close to 200 pts of damage in a round, but since we skip the next round it doesn't raise average damage per round. Just a thought and one that is likely too late, but just a little frustrated where we're at.

Dave wrote: It's getting very late, but still think there should have been something new for the wizard legendary

Example
Mystic Blast, 2/game (or 1/game) a wizard can take 2 standard actions in a single round, but the wizard may not take any standard action in the next round (need to recuperate).

This would allow a wizard to strategically wait for a moment where they could also use a FA and cast 3 spells in one round. That could get us up close to 200 pts of damage in a round, but since we skip the next round it doesn't raise average damage per round. Just a thought and one that is likely too late, but just a little frustrated where we're at.

Mystic Blast (1/game) Expend a level 3 spell slot to cast a level 1 spell and duplicate it's entire effects 2 additional times in the same Standard Action. All bonuses or enhancements are applied to all 3 spells. They can target different enemies if multiple are present

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Please post that link, I would love to examine it

OK, here it is. I made a couple of small adjustments, and I think there must be something to deal more Damage the Wizard could do in turns 8 and 9.

The Summary:
* Druid using max Polymorph and max five instant spells from Ring of Quick Prayer does 763 points of damage over 10 turns (per Matthew's excellent analysis). That drops to just 623 points of damage if Ring of Quick Prayer is nerfed further.
* Druid maximum spell damage including maximum Charm of Spell Swapping usage is 527, using all 10 damage spells (per my analysis below)
* Wizard spell damage including base spell plus SK doubling from Legendary is 1,055 over 10 turns (per my analysis below)
==============================================================
First, Matthew did a max damage analysis of a Polymorph Wizard casting a free action spell every turn from Ring of Quick Prayer, at 903 points for 10 turns. With the Ring nerfed to five uses, that drops 140 points of damage and becomes 763 points of damage for 10 turns.
=================================================================
For pure spell damage, Druid 5th level maximizing Charm of Spell Swapping and using Crown of Expertise to get an extra spell surge and assuming all skill tests are passed, I come out with 177 base damage for 10 turns, which uses all 10 damage spells the Druid can get, even with Charm of Spell Swapping:
2x Call Lightning Spell Surged 40 points each
3x Firebolt (one from CoSS) 14 points each
5x Freezing Orb (two from CoSS) 11 points each

If I applying +35 spell damage bonus per spell that over all 10 turns, it adds another 350.

So, that's only 527 damage over 10 turns for the Druid. If he uses the Ring of Quick Prayer to cast five damage spells as instants, he can get the 527 damage in five turns, but then the Druid is completely out of damage spells.
======================================================================
Wizard 10 turn Damage analysis (there must be a better action for turns 8 and 9):

Room 1:

Turn 1: 133 damage
Lightning Storm: 20+20+35=75
Magic Missile: 11+11+35=57

Turn 2: 128 Damage
Scorching Ray: 18+18+35=71
Magic Missile: 11+11+35=57

Turn 3 (Bracelets of the Cabal Room 1): 116 Damage
Magic Missile (Cats Grace CoSS): 11+11+35=57
Acid Ray (Ring of Expertise): 12+12+35=59

Room 2:

Turn 4: 128 Damage
Ray of Shock: 18+18+35=71
Magic Missile: 11+11+35=57

Turn 5 (Bracelets of the Cabal Room 2): 106 Damage
Acid Ray (Ring of Expertise): 12+12+35=59
Frost Dart 6+6+35=47

Turn 6: 124
Lightning Storm (Crown of Expertise): 20+20+35=75
Burning Hands: 7+7+35=49

Room 3:

Turn 7: (Bracelets of the Cabal Room 3): 120
Acid Ray (Ring of Expertise): 12+12+35=59
Acid Ray: 12+12+35 = 59

Turn 8: 47
Frost Dart: 6+6+35 = 47

Turn 9: 47
Frost Dart: 6+6+35=47

Room 4:

Turn 10: (Bracelets of the Cabal Room 3): 106
Acid Ray (Ring of Expertise): 12+12+35=59
Fire Dart: 6+6+35=47