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TOPIC: FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images!

FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #13

I like this version of the Wizard one more than the last one.

I worry a tad that Elf Wizard has only 2 damage spells to cast as a FA on the card where Wizard Has 3 with the legendary.

The HP cap is sort of fun in giving wizards the only legendary with a drawback.

If there is room I’d love something fun tacked on.


Question: can I choose to slide a puck and still auto hit With slide spells (just to try to bump Pucks onto better spots)
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #14

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, Mage Medallion seems massively overpowered. It gives MEC bonuses to all spells now (including multiple per room) plus allows doubling of spells with the free action. The HP limit seems minor, especially since MEC damage is no longer a factor. As more free action spells are added from future tokens this will be more overpowered.

Adding 3rd level spells to free action with Legendary is just more doubling of spells per room. And, if it's now OK to auto succeed on skill tests, maybe we can bring back the UR from last year that let all classes do it.

I'd be interested in seeing a couple of max build analyses to see what the spell damage potential is incorporating these two Wizard tokens.


I don’t think the wizard token auto succeeds skill tests.

The last iteration granted 6 free action damage spells, and let you swap into as many more as you had higher level spells - but limited to 1/room so effectively 3 or 4.

This iteration grants 3 free action damage spells, and lets you swap into 1 more.

I think this version is less powerful than the last one, but only a little, and it’s much simpler to reason about.


Matthew, you're right, it's auto slide, not auto skill check.

Any chance you can do your magic analysis to see max damage incorporating these? It seems like this is OP to me, but it's hard to tell without crunching the numbers.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #15

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, Mage Medallion seems massively overpowered. It gives MEC bonuses to all spells now (including multiple per room) plus allows doubling of spells with the free action. The HP limit seems minor, especially since MEC damage is no longer a factor. As more free action spells are added from future tokens this will be more overpowered.

Adding 3rd level spells to free action with Legendary is just more doubling of spells per room. And, if it's now OK to auto succeed on skill tests, maybe we can bring back the UR from last year that let all classes do it.

I'd be interested in seeing a couple of max build analyses to see what the spell damage potential is incorporating these two Wizard tokens.


I don’t think the wizard token auto succeeds skill tests.

The last iteration granted 6 free action damage spells, and let you swap into as many more as you had higher level spells - but limited to 1/room so effectively 3 or 4.

This iteration grants 3 free action damage spells, and lets you swap into 1 more.

I think this version is less powerful than the last one, but only a little, and it’s much simpler to reason about.


Matthew, you're right, it's auto slide, not auto skill check.

Any chance you can do your magic analysis to see max damage incorporating these? It seems like this is OP to me, but it's hard to tell without crunching the numbers.


Why do you never do the math yourself?

assume 35 dmg modifier, multiply that by the total number of damage spells.

then go through the card and simply multiply each spell's listed dmg totals x2, and presto. You're done!

Then if you want to be really thorough, count each non-damage spell as a damage spell the level below, repeat the last step. Multiply that total number of non-dmg spells (hint, it's 2) by 35, add the result to your running total and donezo.
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Last edit: by Arnold.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #16

Hmm. there are the free casts.

You have Crown of Expertiese, the Arcane Set, Ring of expertise.

Crown is a flat number. Arcane would be a flat number as well. Then the new ring is X * R. x = the acid raytotal and r = number of rooms.
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob Chasan
My Elemental build
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Do you have Onyx polymorph Potions?
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #17

I'm going to take one more stab at an idea for the Wizard Medallion - and if happens to be received with universal acclimation by Wizards perhaps TBTP would consider it seriously.

Let me take you back, way, way back to August 21st, when horse and buggy was the common mode of transportation and this was the Wizard transmute:



At that time, Wizards did not coalesce around this token largely because they could not agree about how the Familiar aspect should be.

Since then, the Spellbook UR concept has been removed. (Returning to a design process near you in 2022?)

Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.

If TPTB are concerned that these extra spells are going to get bogged down with a bunch of confusing interactions, have them come from the token itself like Ring of Spell Storing - "May cast 1 (relic) or 2 (legendary) spells of each level for free as a free action." That would eliminate cheese like trying to mix this in with Ring of Power for a free action cast of a level 1 spell each room or having Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise being used to generate more free action spells.

This has something for everyone, I think:

Doesn't have awkward power differences for Elf Wizard and Wizard.
Plenty 'o free actions for former MMM users.
An extra charm slot for Charm Necklace users who used to use MeC.
Might shake up builds for Cabal Set users.
MeC still has flavor and dramatic downside of 10 HP per use.
MeC like effects not getting expanded or improved, which may be endorsed by Dr. Uid :P


For Wizards, I invite you to consider - would you rather have what's described here, or what's currently in the first post? Because we're running out of runway to coalesce around something - and this one has the advantage of being very similar to something that was on the table in the past.


I'm more or less OK with the one currently in Jeff's post #1 of this thread.

But I would much rather have what I described in this post.

What say you?

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #18

Arnold wrote: Hmm. there are the free casts.

You have Crown of Expertiese, the Arcane Set, Ring of expertise.

Crown is a flat number. Arcane would be a flat number as well. Then the new ring is X * R. x = the acid raytotal and r = number of rooms.


No free casts of level 1 spells, right? So the Ring of Expertise doesn't grant FA spells.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #19

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: Hmm. there are the free casts.

You have Crown of Expertiese, the Arcane Set, Ring of expertise.

Crown is a flat number. Arcane would be a flat number as well. Then the new ring is X * R. x = the acid raytotal and r = number of rooms.


No free casts of level 1 spells, right? So the Ring of Expertise doesn't grant FA spells.


I see why that was confusing. I meant to say "spells which don't require you to check off a box, thus granting you access to additional casts in the dungeon."

In my defense, I have insomnia from drinking way too much Dr. Pepper today.

Are there any other effects that give you casts w/o checking off boxes?
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob Chasan
My Elemental build
My trade list
Do you have Onyx polymorph Potions?
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #20

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Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm going to take one more stab at an idea for the Wizard Medallion - and if happens to be received with universal acclimation by Wizards perhaps TBTP would consider it seriously.

Let me take you back, way, way back to August 21st, when horse and buggy was the common mode of transportation and this was the Wizard transmute:



At that time, Wizards did not coalesce around this token largely because they could not agree about how the Familiar aspect should be.

Since then, the Spellbook UR concept has been removed. (Returning to a design process near you in 2022?)

Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.

If TPTB are concerned that these extra spells are going to get bogged down with a bunch of confusing interactions, have them come from the token itself like Ring of Spell Storing - "May cast 1 (relic) or 2 (legendary) spells of each level for free as a free action." That would eliminate cheese like trying to mix this in with Ring of Power for a free action cast of a level 1 spell each room or having Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise being used to generate more free action spells.

This has something for everyone, I think:

Doesn't have awkward power differences for Elf Wizard and Wizard.
Plenty 'o free actions for former MMM users.
An extra charm slot for Charm Necklace users who used to use MeC.
Might shake up builds for Cabal Set users.
MeC still has flavor and dramatic downside of 10 HP per use.
MeC like effects not getting expanded or improved, which may be endorsed by Dr. Uid :P


For Wizards, I invite you to consider - would you rather have what's described here, or what's currently in the first post? Because we're running out of runway to coalesce around something - and this one has the advantage of being very similar to something that was on the table in the past.


I'm more or less OK with the one currently in Jeff's post #1 of this thread.

But I would much rather have what I described in this post.

What say you?


I'd be happy with Matthew's design here.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #21

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm going to take one more stab at an idea for the Wizard Medallion - and if happens to be received with universal acclimation by Wizards perhaps TBTP would consider it seriously.

Let me take you back, way, way back to August 21st, when horse and buggy was the common mode of transportation and this was the Wizard transmute:



At that time, Wizards did not coalesce around this token largely because they could not agree about how the Familiar aspect should be.

Since then, the Spellbook UR concept has been removed. (Returning to a design process near you in 2022?)

Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.

If TPTB are concerned that these extra spells are going to get bogged down with a bunch of confusing interactions, have them come from the token itself like Ring of Spell Storing - "May cast 1 (relic) or 2 (legendary) spells of each level for free as a free action." That would eliminate cheese like trying to mix this in with Ring of Power for a free action cast of a level 1 spell each room or having Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise being used to generate more free action spells.

This has something for everyone, I think:

Doesn't have awkward power differences for Elf Wizard and Wizard.
Plenty 'o free actions for former MMM users.
An extra charm slot for Charm Necklace users who used to use MeC.
Might shake up builds for Cabal Set users.
MeC still has flavor and dramatic downside of 10 HP per use.
MeC like effects not getting expanded or improved, which may be endorsed by Dr. Uid :P


For Wizards, I invite you to consider - would you rather have what's described here, or what's currently in the first post? Because we're running out of runway to coalesce around something - and this one has the advantage of being very similar to something that was on the table in the past.


I'm more or less OK with the one currently in Jeff's post #1 of this thread.

But I would much rather have what I described in this post.

What say you?


I would be OK with this if the Legendary provided one of the perks we'd seen in other revisions

19-20 x3 crit on slides
+x to successful skill checks
MEC effect applies to all spells in combat round, not just 1


Legendary tokens generally provide something beyond purely the step up from Relic. For the class specific ones at least. Your current suggestion does not give us any Legendary perk.

Maybe just let Jeff select one.


I'm honestly fine with either design but I think the current design is stronger than the suggestion without the bump to MEC affecting both spells.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #22

Matthew Hayward wrote: Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.
.....
.....
But I would much rather have what I described in this post.

What say you?


Simply put, I like Hayward's idea better.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #23

Arnold wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: Hmm. there are the free casts.

You have Crown of Expertiese, the Arcane Set, Ring of expertise.

Crown is a flat number. Arcane would be a flat number as well. Then the new ring is X * R. x = the acid raytotal and r = number of rooms.


No free casts of level 1 spells, right? So the Ring of Expertise doesn't grant FA spells.


I see why that was confusing. I meant to say "spells which don't require you to check off a box, thus granting you access to additional casts in the dungeon."

In my defense, I have insomnia from drinking way too much Dr. Pepper today.

Are there any other effects that give you casts w/o checking off boxes?


Cast as a spell, that's all I can think of (well - make some friends with Clerics :) for Restore spell).

There's a bunch of "as a scroll" ones too.
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FINAL 2021 Transmuted Token Images! 5 months 3 weeks ago #24

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm going to take one more stab at an idea for the Wizard Medallion - and if happens to be received with universal acclimation by Wizards perhaps TBTP would consider it seriously.

Let me take you back, way, way back to August 21st, when horse and buggy was the common mode of transportation and this was the Wizard transmute:



At that time, Wizards did not coalesce around this token largely because they could not agree about how the Familiar aspect should be.

Since then, the Spellbook UR concept has been removed. (Returning to a design process near you in 2022?)

Dream with me - what if we:

a. Start with the Relic/Legendary above.
b. Remove UR Jinn's Spellbook, and replace it with plain old UR MeC as printed in 2021.
c. Drop the familiar aspect from the Legendary.

That's it!

Relic: MeC + 1 extra spell at each level castable as a free action.
Legendary: MeC + 2 extra spells at each level castable as a free action.

If TPTB are concerned that these extra spells are going to get bogged down with a bunch of confusing interactions, have them come from the token itself like Ring of Spell Storing - "May cast 1 (relic) or 2 (legendary) spells of each level for free as a free action." That would eliminate cheese like trying to mix this in with Ring of Power for a free action cast of a level 1 spell each room or having Restore Spell or Crown of Expertise being used to generate more free action spells.

This has something for everyone, I think:

Doesn't have awkward power differences for Elf Wizard and Wizard.
Plenty 'o free actions for former MMM users.
An extra charm slot for Charm Necklace users who used to use MeC.
Might shake up builds for Cabal Set users.
MeC still has flavor and dramatic downside of 10 HP per use.
MeC like effects not getting expanded or improved, which may be endorsed by Dr. Uid :P


For Wizards, I invite you to consider - would you rather have what's described here, or what's currently in the first post? Because we're running out of runway to coalesce around something - and this one has the advantage of being very similar to something that was on the table in the past.


I'm more or less OK with the one currently in Jeff's post #1 of this thread.

But I would much rather have what I described in this post.

What say you?


I think extra boxes as free actions that effectively allow spell damage modifier to be doubled for 8 rounds is one of the reasons it was easier to just double the base damage of spells.

The new design is (I consider) fairly straight-forward in its caps and it allows the spell damage to be upped in the future without compounding the 2x / turn issue. This is where most of the trouble lies.

Ring of Quick Blessing presents the same challenge, but it would have a cap of 5 and the legendary as-presented has a cap of 4.
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob Chasan
My Elemental build
My trade list
Do you have Onyx polymorph Potions?
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