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TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Feedback

2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #193

Mike Steele wrote:

Guedoji wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Also, +1 to Raven's reasoning behind not using potions. Time is too valuable.


In addition to potions, I also do not use any tokens that are not automatically factored on the party card. For instance, tokens that add damage only when sneak attacking, or when using a specific weapon type. The DM will not factor that in, and calculating and bringing up the extra damage takes more time than its worth, most of the time the DM is not giving us feedback on whats happening with DMG anyways, so its better to ignore it and get people back to sliding.


I also don't use many (almost zero) consumables because the token backpack for the group is already heavy enough without them. And I've got my pockets full of two token wallets the the tokens for the group the DM might want to see, so no room for them. I'm sure I'd feel differently if I was just carrying around the tokens for one class. :)


Oh, but I wanted to mention that I do use the equipment tokens like "Rum" and "Rope" to find alternate solutions because "You don't bleepn' know what you're gonna need it for. They just always need it." :laugh: . I find these to be extremely useful and fun and will carry them until the end, It's unfortunate these have been trending down in the recent years.
Turn 03: You purchase a dagger, bow and two potions.
Shopkeep: "If your looking to earn gold you should speak to the Cleric, she may have need of someone with your skills."
╔═════════╗
║ (ᴗ ͜ʖ ᴗ) ║
║[℧] ║
║  ║
╚════  ═══╝
[Shop: Spellbook 5gp]

Options:
[Find Cleric][Leave Town][Other]

[HP: 5][Inventory: 0GP, Rum, †(Dagger), €(Bow), 2x(♥)]

Want to control the story? rules here
Last edit: by Guedoji.
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2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #194

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I like the Rod of the Meek.

I agreed with Ian's comment that changing it to STR must be less than or equal to 18 makes it a more fun build-around puzzle solving type token, but I'm happy to see this effect in the world in either iteration.


We removed the 18 STR requirement because it was not really needed. The flat limit of +10 to hit and damage makes it mostly irreverent...but I could be wrong.


One difference: I understand how 18 or less Str works. I don't understand how this version of Meek works. It seems like I have to construct a build that when I try to equip the Meek, it doesn't go over +10 to hit or +10 to damage with the +4 bonus. OTOH, maybe I can always equip it, but when I do, my to hit and damage bonuses over 10 drop down to 10.

Two difference: 18 or less can be a puzzle, as MH puts it. You can replace Str boosters with to hit and damage boosters to still beat down. Now, you don't have to. You can be a ranged build with a big plus sidearm. Or, whatever. 18 or less is easily controlled for as a prereq. 10/10 is not easily controlled for when you have any sort of collection. Can't have Str too high as that will take you over but also probably can't Bot4W with another Eldritch to level up as would be +6 damage off of those two tokens, add in +4 from Meek, and zero other damage bonuses from tokens. I was thinking about how there's a conceptual similarity between a -4 Rod of the Meek and a +4 Rod of the Meek due to how easy it is to pump bonuses, but I'm too lazy to show the math on what I mean.

As for why I don't use potions, I don't need them. I've used Cures 10's in recent years, but I consider other potions to be probably Inks for when I run out of Inks, which is not unusual due to how few liquids there tend to be and how wet certain recipes end up being. But, it's more than just not finding any use for consumables besides maybe carrying a Stone to Flesh scroll or two and a resurrection potion or two.

If there's one thing I've learned from vastly expanding my token collection is that what TD is truly about is reducing tokens. The more substantial piece of that is cutting weight through transmuting or otherwise finding a way to get rid of tokens or avoid getting them in the first place. And, while I still carry the crap around in binders in a backpack, I lost interest in carrying tokens at hand around on runs, as have my friends. When wizarding, I'm stuck carrying around CoSS and MEC and whatever. But, I did a build for a friend where we got him down to a single token he had to carry while playing, and it was the Plane of Bliss. I'm considering how I want to do the Zero-Carry build. I suppose this is a VTD advantage - just swing camera over "show" tokens prior to murdering stuff, plus no backpack with 30 pounds of tokens in binders.

And, of course, I already sink a bunch of money into the game. Why would I plan on losing more money playing by using consumables when they don't really matter? Admittedly, the real value lost is nowhere near the theoretical value lost, but the concept is there.
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2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #195

Guedoji wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Guedoji wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Also, +1 to Raven's reasoning behind not using potions. Time is too valuable.


In addition to potions, I also do not use any tokens that are not automatically factored on the party card. For instance, tokens that add damage only when sneak attacking, or when using a specific weapon type. The DM will not factor that in, and calculating and bringing up the extra damage takes more time than its worth, most of the time the DM is not giving us feedback on whats happening with DMG anyways, so its better to ignore it and get people back to sliding.


I also don't use many (almost zero) consumables because the token backpack for the group is already heavy enough without them. And I've got my pockets full of two token wallets the the tokens for the group the DM might want to see, so no room for them. I'm sure I'd feel differently if I was just carrying around the tokens for one class. :)


Oh, but I wanted to mention that I do use the equipment tokens like "Rum" and "Rope" because "You don't fuckin' know what you're gonna need it for. They just always need it." :laugh: to try and find alternate solutions. I find these to be extremely useful and fun and will carry them until the end, It's unfortunate these have been trending down in the recent years.


I do love Gear tokens, and I'm also a bit sad that they have been trending down. I remember when adventures used to try to incorporate them, like when if you had a mortar & pistle you could grind up a statue finger as a cure (I'm sure I'm not remembering the details of that quite right).
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2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #196

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Harlax wrote:

Raven wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

James wrote: I still don't know what The Brewmaster charm is trying to accomplish, I have a pouch of Tulz and I almost never use it.


Thanks for the feedback. Can you tell us why drinking a Potion as a free action when you start a combat is not something you like to do? Sorry for the dense question!


I can’t answer for everyone, only myself, but this is why I don’t start combat with drinking a potion:

Because I have to get the DM’s attention, I have to hand them the potion, and wait for them to note the potions effect on the combat board. And even then, odds are good I’ll have to remind the DM to include the potion effects at some point after the first round, as many DMs forget.

If I do that, and 3 or 4 party members do that, it takes 2-3 minutes. We could have slid an entire round of combat in the same time. And in the end, most “failed” combats are lost because parties run out of time, not because they were 6 - 20 HP short of killing the monster.

I tend to only use potions in puzzle rooms (for healing, etc) or if they make the difference between hitting the monster, or being completely unable to hit it (Leaping Attack for Flying foes, or Healing potions which remove Charm if I’ve succumbed, etc). Even then, sometimes I just try my Sneak Atrack, and then hang back & use my slider to bump the heavy hitters into criticals, and Don’t Worry about any damage I may or may not do.


Yes Time is your greatest enemy in the Dungeon (yourself is also an acceptable answer).. Over the years Party size has increased, token complexity has increased, time has not increased. But that is a whole other topic.


Thanks for all the feedback! I guess, in this one way, Virtual True Dungeon is superior to the real thing...as you CAN drink a potion and make the combat adjustment yourself. That is fun then...maybe folks have different builds in VTD?
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Last edit: by Jeff Martin.
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2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #197

Jeff Martin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Raven wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

James wrote: I still don't know what The Brewmaster charm is trying to accomplish, I have a pouch of Tulz and I almost never use it.


Thanks for the feedback. Can you tell us why drinking a Potion as a free action when you start a combat is not something you like to do? Sorry for the dense question!


I can’t answer for everyone, only myself, but this is why I don’t start combat with drinking a potion:

Because I have to get the DM’s attention, I have to hand them the potion, and wait for them to note the potions effect on the combat board. And even then, odds are good I’ll have to remind the DM to include the potion effects at some point after the first round, as many DMs forget.

If I do that, and 3 or 4 party members do that, it takes 2-3 minutes. We could have slid an entire round of combat in the same time. And in the end, most “failed” combats are lost because parties run out of time, not because they were 6 - 20 HP short of killing the monster.

I tend to only use potions in puzzle rooms (for healing, etc) or if they make the difference between hitting the monster, or being completely unable to hit it (Leaping Attack for Flying foes, or Healing potions which remove Charm if I’ve succumbed, etc). Even then, sometimes I just try my Sneak Atrack, and then hang back & use my slider to bump the heavy hitters into criticals, and Don’t Worry about any damage I may or may not do.


Yes Time is your greatest enemy in the Dungeon (yourself is also an acceptable answer).. Over the years Party size has increased, token complexity has increased, time has not increased. But that is a whole other topic.


Thanks for all the feedback! I guess, in this one way, Virtual True Dungeon is superior to the real thing...as you CAN drink a potion and make the combat adjustment yourself. That is fun then...maybe folks have different builds in VTD?


Not up to this point, but I'm considering it now... or at least dusting off my Pouch of Tulz that generally goes unused outside Grind.
Last edit: by Fiddy.
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2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #198

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Ian Lee wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I like the Rod of the Meek.

I agreed with Ian's comment that changing it to STR must be less than or equal to 18 makes it a more fun build-around puzzle solving type token, but I'm happy to see this effect in the world in either iteration.


We removed the 18 STR requirement because it was not really needed. The flat limit of +10 to hit and damage makes it mostly irreverent...but I could be wrong.


One difference: I understand how 18 or less Str works. I don't understand how this version of Meek works. It seems like I have to construct a build that when I try to equip the Meek, it doesn't go over +10 to hit or +10 to damage with the +4 bonus. OTOH, maybe I can always equip it, but when I do, my to hit and damage bonuses over 10 drop down to 10.

Two difference: 18 or less can be a puzzle, as MH puts it. You can replace Str boosters with to hit and damage boosters to still beat down. Now, you don't have to. You can be a ranged build with a big plus sidearm. Or, whatever. 18 or less is easily controlled for as a prereq. 10/10 is not easily controlled for when you have any sort of collection. Can't have Str too high as that will take you over but also probably can't Bot4W with another Eldritch to level up as would be +6 damage off of those two tokens, add in +4 from Meek, and zero other damage bonuses from tokens. I was thinking about how there's a conceptual similarity between a -4 Rod of the Meek and a +4 Rod of the Meek due to how easy it is to pump bonuses, but I'm too lazy to show the math on what I mean.

As for why I don't use potions, I don't need them. I've used Cures 10's in recent years, but I consider other potions to be probably Inks for when I run out of Inks, which is not unusual due to how few liquids there tend to be and how wet certain recipes end up being. But, it's more than just not finding any use for consumables besides maybe carrying a Stone to Flesh scroll or two and a resurrection potion or two.

If there's one thing I've learned from vastly expanding my token collection is that what TD is truly about is reducing tokens. The more substantial piece of that is cutting weight through transmuting or otherwise finding a way to get rid of tokens or avoid getting them in the first place. And, while I still carry the crap around in binders in a backpack, I lost interest in carrying tokens at hand around on runs, as have my friends. When wizarding, I'm stuck carrying around CoSS and MEC and whatever. But, I did a build for a friend where we got him down to a single token he had to carry while playing, and it was the Plane of Bliss. I'm considering how I want to do the Zero-Carry build. I suppose this is a VTD advantage - just swing camera over "show" tokens prior to murdering stuff, plus no backpack with 30 pounds of tokens in binders.

And, of course, I already sink a bunch of money into the game. Why would I plan on losing more money playing by using consumables when they don't really matter? Admittedly, the real value lost is nowhere near the theoretical value lost, but the concept is there.


Thanks for the considered feedback. I am afraid the token might get too powerful over the years as someone with an 18 STR could add in bunches of "non-STR" combat bonuses. It is probably safer just to leave it as is.
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2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #199

Jeff: while you are reading the forums, any thoughts on moving the Wizard spellbook back to slotless? It's a damage loss to equip it vs the Medallion of Heroism and that just seems like a bad thing for a neck slot item.
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2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #200

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Jeff: while you are reading the forums, any thoughts on moving the Wizard spellbook back to slotless? It's a damage loss to equip it vs the Medallion of Heroism and that just seems like a bad thing for a neck slot item.


I think you mean amulet of shock / amulet of focus.
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2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #201

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Jeff: while you are reading the forums, any thoughts on moving the Wizard spellbook back to slotless? It's a damage loss to equip it vs the Medallion of Heroism and that just seems like a bad thing for a neck slot item.


I think you mean amulet of shock / amulet of focus.


Quiet you!

...
Yes, I am the derp. I meant Medallion of Focus
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2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #202

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Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Jeff: while you are reading the forums, any thoughts on moving the Wizard spellbook back to slotless? It's a damage loss to equip it vs the Medallion of Heroism and that just seems like a bad thing for a neck slot item.


Both the Spellbook and the Bracelets of Power are becoming Charms...and so is the Big Cleric item. Stay tuned!
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2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #203

Endgame wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Yep. Melee and Ranged weapons are freely swappable at any time unless they are required to complete a set bonus.


Yeah...kind of a dumb rule...if you ask me. I am sure the guy who made that rule is regretting it now. Sorry. :(


Well, you could always change the rules :D


Legit.
Tho, I know a lot of folks who invest in Weapons do so with the knowledge that they can be swapped out, and they like to have "the Right Tool for the Job" (Blunt for damaging skeletons, Scepter of Might for de-buffing the Monster, Cestus to drop AC & make it easier for party to hit, Mithral Longsword to hit incorporeals.. etc)

I'm 100% certain Jeff is aware of the potential pushback from players who get Mighty Riled Up when something changes, and makes them question their investment. So.... proceed with caution.

Or create a room where everyone gets attacked that uses a free action, or can’t take free actions at all. A litch that casts some variation of time stop?


That sounds like a really cool room design!
Tho, I wouldn't use it for a boss fight, or you'd (again) get folks Mighty Riled Up that they bought this token to be able to do X as a free action, and now they aren't allowed to use it.

Tho, it might be that the Lich is holding an artifact, and if players target the artifact & break it, then they gain access to their Free Action powers again. That'd be an interesting puzzle-in-a-combat.

Or roll with it and create higher difficulty combats that requires switching weapons? The monster casts immunity to magical weapons. Only mundane weapons will deal damage. Monster will switch to protection from normal weapons if damaged by a weapon. If damaged exclusively by spells casts sphere of invulnerability to become immune to 5th level spells and lower.


All cool ideas, and I'd love to play in a dungeon which incorporated some of them : )

In any case, nightshade and staff of power are so old you could do a lot with Changing them. For example, On reprint, you could add a qualifier called Bound - you may not swap this weapon while in the dungeon.


Dang. now I want to campaign for a reprint of Nightshades (and maybe some other weapons... Staff of Focus? ... SeyLah's +2 Sundering Cestus...?) which are "BOUND" items and may not be swapped out in combat (except melee : ranged) and then have an upgrade path to a cool Relic which is also BOUND, but has better stats than the original. (+3 Bound Nightshades? +3 SeyLah's Bound Cestus?)

But that would have to be a campaign for another year.
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2020 Ultra Rare Feedback 1 month 3 weeks ago #204

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Good ideas here! Thanks! Remind me next year about the bound idea.

And Nightshade's is coming back this year...but not in the form everyone is expecting. Stay tuned.
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