TOPIC: Assassin’s crossbow reprint breakout thread

All for a revised crossbow. Leave the assassin's crossbow as is.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: All for a revised crossbow. Leave the assassin's crossbow as is.

+1

+1 to the point made earlier that the Rogue class is not just about the puzzle box. Yes, it's the cool unique thing that Rogues do, and It's the reason I originally chose Rogue (I'm better at dexterity puzzles than memorization), but the point that Rogues have nothing to do in combat rooms but fight is valid. (unlike classes that can heal or provide buffs) They need to contribute on damage.

This entire debate seems based on a top-tier build that costs more than a new car, which many players will never see. If someone spends that much time and money to fully optimize a legendary build for ranged damage, by all means let them be in the top 5 DPS. They earned it.

I do not think that the game should be balanced around extreme builds like this. I think Assassin's Crossbow + the Relic necklace is fine. If it's broken with the Legendary, I'm ok with that.

I would actually rather see the extra sneak attacks converted to re-slides than to nerf the crossbow.

I don’t think the Assassin’s Crossbow by itself is a problem. At the base level, it does 3X damage wheel on a crit instead of 2X damage wheel. It’s a nice plus for a class limited weapon.

Likewise, I don’t think the Raphiel’s Sneaky Necklace is a problem by itself. It gives 2 sneak attacks which is great if you happen to miss your first sneak attack, since the sneak attack moment is the highlight of the combat for a rogue and missing your sneak attack is disappointing if you only have 1. Critting on 17-20—It’s a single class token and it only applies to Sneak Attack crits, not regular crits. Those are extremely narrow crit circumstances so the crit reach to 17 can be excused. Non-sneak attack crits go back to 20 even with the necklace on. So if you roll 16 or less on all your sneak attacks you might as well not even be wearing a neck slot item, never mind a legendary one. You’re giving up a valuable neck slot item for a better chance to crit in limited circumstances that apply only to a single character class.

As for the build that sparked the debate, 24 of those (potentially) tripled damage points come from equipped damage modifiers, something the average rogue build is never going to see. However, the other fun part of character building for any class, is digging, and digging, and digging through all the existing tokens and being clever enough, and effortful enough, to see how far your character build can potentially go, same as we would all want to do if we were equipping our real selves to survive these kinds of circumstances in real life. Each new survival enhancing token you can hunt down and add, you’ve earned.

Best case scenario, a rogue with top gear gets a flawless run of critical hit sneak attacks. Possible, but unlikely. Worst case scenario, no crits, no triples. And for the average rogue, that translates into pretty poor hits except for the sneak attack bonus.

Simon wrote:
As for the build that sparked the debate, 24 of those (potentially) tripled damage points come from equipped damage modifiers, something the average rogue build is never going to see.

Yes and no...

Some things, like Draco-Lich Claw Charm or Boots of the Four Winds are fairly exotic.

But:
4 point transmute: Blessed Tempest Gloves +3
Uncommon Holly Ring +1
Rare Amulet of Shock +2
Ioun Stone Banshee Prism +2 (in print UR)
Arcane Belt +2 (in print UR)
Rare Archer's Bracers +2
L4 bardsong with a +2 Instrument: +3

You can start getting up there with ranged damage mods without breaking the bank.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Simon wrote:
As for the build that sparked the debate, 24 of those (potentially) tripled damage points come from equipped damage modifiers, something the average rogue build is never going to see.

Yes and no...

Some things, like Draco-Lich Claw Charm or Boots of the Four Winds are fairly exotic.

But:
4 point transmute: Blessed Tempest Gloves +3
Uncommon Holly Ring +1
Rare Amulet of Shock +2
Ioun Stone Banshee Prism +2 (in print UR)
Arcane Belt +2 (in print UR)
Rare Archer's Bracers +2
L4 bardsong with a +2 Instrument: +3

You can start getting up there with ranged damage mods without breaking the bank.

Your example only lands in the range of +10 or so, the amulet you listed is incompatible with the crit-expanding necklaces, and would result in a 3x crit in the neghborhood of 60-70 for 5th level. (Math is an estimate)

That's not going to compete with top melee damage. That's why I don't think the crossbow is a problem. At the level that the crits start to look big, other classes should be doing crazy damage as well.

I wouldn't be surprised to see our monks and rangers doing 200 on double crits with expanded crit range.

Perhaps the Legendary should have been 18-20 instead, but the relic seems fine.

Iross wrote:

Endgame wrote:
As a class that is primarily about the rogue box (ex a puzzle room class), my feeling is that the rogue has plenty of class identity, and doesn’t need to be above bottom 3 in damage.

I feel that switching the assassins crossbow to 3x on natural 20 would still give the opportunity for surprise, high spike damage without the consistency to push the class into the higher damage tiers.

Speaking from the point of view of someone who pretty much only ever plays Rogue, this doesn't reflect my experience in TD.

Opening the Rogue box is certainly a big part part of the class identity, but given that it takes less than a minute and only happens three times per run it's much less part of the identity than using Sneak Attack to land a really big hit on a monster which will generally happen at least three times per dungeon as part of a full combat.

I have to view Rogue as a combat class, since during a combat there is nothing else a Rogue can do. There are no spells available, no class abilities which take up a standard action at level 4, and at level 5 there is only Flank which I have never seen used in a run due to it being generally more beneficial to just attack instead.

Based on the above I don't think it's wrong for Rogue to be included in the top five damage dealing classes, both thematically and mechanically it makes sense to me for Rogue to be there. If the damage were significantly higher than Monk, Ranger, Barbarian, etc I'd agree that a reduction in power level is necessary but the combination of necklace and Assassin's Crossbow only puts Rogue up to the same level as the other classes - yes there is the option of using consumables to boost the damage but other classes also have the same option with Potion of Bull's Strength, etc.

Changing the Assassin's Crossbow to only work on a natural 20 would mean there's little reason for a Rogue to use it. The ability would no longer work with the necklace and the +2 Stunning Light Crossbow has better stats at that point, with the exception of when rolling a natural 20 which has been extremely difficult in recent years outside of VTD. If Assassin's Crossbow were changed then most likely I'd have to switch to a melee build to keep my build viable for the higher difficulty levels, and at that point I'd still be able to output similar damage to the current Assassin's Crossbow build.

However, I don't think Assassin's Crossbow should be reprinted. Not necessarily because of balance issues, but because at the moment it's by far and away the single best Rogue ranged weapon in the game with nothing else coming close. I'd much rather see something new like a Viper Strike Crossbow which allows for a choice of viable builds.

I agree on what you are saying.

If the Assassin’s crossbow were nerfed, it dramtically reduces the value or need for the legendary (and makes the assassin’s crossbow likely the 4th or 5th best ranged option for a rogue.)

Rogues are glass cannons - they hit hard but have little defense or hp. I find every time I get a crit, I can count on the next attack coming my way. I can’t recall the last time on NM or Epic that any creature didn’t hit me that aimed at me so you definitely get punished for it.

Your idea of a Viper Crossbow is fantastic. That would make it easy for Viper users to switch to range. It also incentivizes them buying another UR, Lenses of Agility. +1 there for certain.