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TOPIC: Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid Discussion

Ioun Stone Jaspter Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #13

I would say that having a UR level chase completion token SHOULD NOT be allowed.

If it IS made for some reason I would say that ALL rare completion tokens available at that convention should be of an equal value.

Having a completion token that is STRONGER than an UR token printed the year before devalues the Ultra Rare tokens and the $250 token purchase.

Having three completion tokens at GenCon, 2 worth $1-10 dollars and one worth $75+ means that anyone who only does 1 dungeon per year has a 66% chance of choosing the "wrong" dungeon and not getting a token worth 5-10 TIMES the value of the one they got for choosing a different dungeon.

Ignoring the negative experience of

"Hey, if we run this on Hardcore/Nightmare we get a really good token. I will personally give you $20 each for the token if we do that"

"Hey, there's a really expensive token from this run, even if we all die by playing Hardcore, we get a token worth $50-100 each. So why don't we play higher? Who cares if we die? $$$"


Imagine the experience of 3 friends who all played true dungeon separately.
Imagine each one of them got a different dungeon.
Imagine each of them played hardcore and won! and got their rare completion token!

Now imagine that one of these players finds out HIS completion token is really rare and successfully sells it for $50!

NOW IMAGINE THE EXPERIENCE OF HIS TWO FRIENDS.

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Ioun Stone Jaspter Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #14

I am one of the folks who literally just bought the Infernal Fire Prism.

Speaking personally, I would be fine if this was a transmute that used completion tokens as ingredients on a point system so that 1. There was additional cost to make it over and above just getting the completion token. 2. You didn't specifically have to get it at GenCon and 3. You didn't necessarily have to do a particular dungeon to get it.

I think that would solve a lot of the problems.

Again speaking personally, I would be very unhappy with Matt's suggestion of not changing the stats but having it at one of the cons with less demand since I don't anticipate being able to attend any of the TD cons in 2020 besides Origins and Gencon.

In principle, I don't think we need a repeat of the Soul Coffer, and I don't think that offering OP tokens is the right way to encourage ticket sales.

Overall, I do think that completion tokens should probably be more useful, rather than just collectors items or mulch, so I think I understand why things went this way, but it does seem a bit too good to be better than a UR.

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Last edit: by Daniel White.

Ioun Stone Jaspter Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #15

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This would be better as a volunteer token.
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Ioun Stone Jaspter Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #16

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I dont feel like this is a great idea. Imagine the complaints if this token say runs out or is forgotten and something else is substituted. Not to mention in principle I think it's a bad idea to have one reward be significantly better then another, again it will lead to hurt feelings. I also bought a fire prism this year and wouldn't be thrilled to see it devalued so quickly.
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Ioun Stone Jaspter Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #17

Picc wrote: I dont feel like this is a great idea. Imagine the complaints if this token say runs out or is forgotten and something else is substituted. Not to mention in principle I think it's a bad idea to have one reward be significantly better then another, again it will lead to hurt feelings. I also bought a fire prism this year and wouldn't be thrilled to see it devalued so quickly.


Running out or a mix up partway through the con is my ONLY concern here. With the completion tokens being so different in power level, getting the 'wrong' token because you ran friday instead of thursday would be frustrating. So, just make sure there is enough and triple verify that it given out for the correct dungeon, and all is good.

As to the infernal fire prism...well, that is a weak UR, and we shouldnt expect TD to be constrained by weak UR power level.

So, to defend that statement: why is the infernal fire prism valued so highly? I have guesses, but maybe i am wrong. I think a lot of people have so many slot expanders that digging down far below the top 5 ioun stones. I think many people dont consider the cost of the item. I think some people value damage WAY higher than any other stat.
EDIT: forgot another point on this- for those who value damage so much, the completion token doesnt replace the UR, you can use both.
I expect most people will value the nuggets over anything else, so that only leaves 2 ioun stone slots (because im not spending over $100 on a token that i know wont get used as soon as the third nugget is released).
I definitely value +2 saves over +2 damage. In fact, i feel that +1 saves is comparable in power to +2 damage; and which of those i choose will have a lot to do with which of those stats needs more boosting.

Even if the infernal fire prism was +3 damage, i wouldnt be willing to spend $100 to upgrade to it from a beryl prism.

I expect when we are eventually designing relic ioun stones, and people push for 'appropriate' power level to make it better than the best ioun stone, i think it will become obvious just how weak the infernal fire prism is.

All that said, +2 damage ioun stone sounds great at rare level. And prevents being overly abundant by being a completion token. As long as it stays in the $20 value range, i will happily hold onto it for grinds. And if it soars past $50, i will happily sell them and buy better URs :)
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Last edit: by kurtreznor.

Ioun Stone Jaspter Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #18

I do agree that this is too good a completion token since it’s so close to the Ioun Stone from last year. My guess is that that ship has already sailed in token development.
I also agree that it’s better than the volunteer tokens.
I also think it would be better as a token for pax south or gamehole considering they have a harder time selling out.

I think gencon might be getting to much better of stuff this year than the other con at competition and volunteer.

Idea on completion tokens, maybe we should have them go through token development just like any other token, possibility just give a list of possible tokens and we can discuss and develop them even if some are there just as red herring that would never see print. Maybe keep it in the lords and ladies area.

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Ioun Stone Jaspter Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #19

kurtreznor wrote: I definitely value +2 saves over +2 damage. In fact, i feel that +1 saves is comparable in power to +2 damage; and which of those i choose will have a lot to do with which of those stats needs more boosting.


If we were limiting discussion to Grind, I'd completely agree with you. But in the Dungeon, I think it is easy to see why most people would take damage you can apply most every round of combat over a save bonus you may need once per run.

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Ioun Stone Jaspter Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #20

Harlax wrote: This would be better as a volunteer token.


Yep, I'm of the likely minority camp i rather see less unique completion tokens overall to be honest. I play because i enjoy playing not for the token at the end. I'm collector enough though that i like to have all the completion tokens as it usually feels like an achievable goal for a small time collector/spender that i am. I woud despise another token that becomes automatically BiS or 'must have'. I like how the inferno step boots were handled. A cool useful token that got functionally reprinted in set year later. Rewards those who played/have it and with the new boots those that didn't can now get it.

However i agree that if i knew ahead of time (or face it will be discovered day 1 and news spread among those who run all con) i will shift my schedule to 'farm' the desirable token. Failing that i'll then focus on doing less runs overall due to the feel bad and lack of value.
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Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #21

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm torn - I think it would be good to have one or two chase completion tokens a year - especially at satellite conventions - it's a nice way to give vols or regulars who travel to the new con a boost.

Also, these stack with other Iouns, it's not like it's duplicating a wrist slot effect or something.

But I agree that "rare that is as good as last year UR" is probably not great territory to be in - especially when that UR is a BiS build token.


On the one hand, it might simply be too late - the tokens might be in process.

If it's not too late, I might suggest:
* Rare +1 to melee damage, Uncommon +1 to melee damage but you take 1 poison when you score a hit
* +2 to damage and +1 to damage with a Rare melee weapon
* +2 to damage and +1 to damage with two handed melee weapons


I like your alternate solutions on this. Other variations could include that it cannot be stacked with another bonus damage item, could be your only ioun stone, only usable without a str boost item, etc..

Being fair to people who spent $250 for a PYP order direct from TD or $100 for a PYP out of a larger order - it's probably best not to have an equivalent token available the very next year as a completion token (Volunteer - sure, not completion).

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Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #22

We have too many different completion tokens. Please, make it stop. Seriously.

Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.

One of the things that makes our annual sets so decent is they go through a public vetting process to balance things out. Those 140 tokens usually turn out pretty well. Completion tokens don’t. Having 20+ completion tokens designed in a relative vacuum guarantees there will be too much variation in power. Just look at the history. Drinking Horn of Bliss is nowhere near as desirable as the slotless Soul Coffer, and a reprinted Boots of Might is waaay better than Bracelets of Blocking.

And I disagree with any satellite having chase tokens, especially not any that are worth more than the ticket. In my opinion, the satellites should be focused on adding new players to the community, not luring the old guard to fly around the country. The former would build token sales. The latter just frustrates me and maybe others.
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Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #23

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Brad Mortensen wrote: We have too many different completion tokens. Please, make it stop. Seriously.

Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.


+1
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid Discussion 1 month 1 week ago #24

Harlax wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: We have too many different completion tokens. Please, make it stop. Seriously.

Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.


+1


Cheekily: -1

Some people like all the tokens and collecting them.

Is there some reason why they should be more limited - or are you just sharing your preference?

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