TOPIC: FINAL NOTES & IMAGES 2020

Flik wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Flik wrote: Why does the uncommon +1 shuriken have a different class restriction than the +2 shuriken?

I think, like all other shuriken printed, the rare needs to be Fighter, Monk, and Rogue only.

I will fix it. Thanks.

I would think Rangers should get shurikens, too.

And personally I agree with making the UC a Masterwork, and the R a +1, to match previous version. That said, if it was +1 Shuriken of Shadows with 1 Darkrift damage baked in (and Fighters, Monk, Ranger, & Rogue), I would not be insulted.

But rangers have never gotten to use them in the game before so I’m not sure now is the time to start.

Well, if not now, then when? Especially with rangers getting the Ranged focused legendary, let's give them the throwing stars they were missing.

Xavon wrote:

Flik wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Flik wrote: Why does the uncommon +1 shuriken have a different class restriction than the +2 shuriken?

I think, like all other shuriken printed, the rare needs to be Fighter, Monk, and Rogue only.

I will fix it. Thanks.

I would think Rangers should get shurikens, too.

And personally I agree with making the UC a Masterwork, and the R a +1, to match previous version. That said, if it was +1 Shuriken of Shadows with 1 Darkrift damage baked in (and Fighters, Monk, Ranger, & Rogue), I would not be insulted.

But rangers have never gotten to use them in the game before so I’m not sure now is the time to start.

Well, if not now, then when? Especially with rangers getting the Ranged focused legendary, let's give them the throwing stars they were missing.

I’m sorry but why do they need throwing stars when they primarily shoot arrows? Is this a dnd source thing I don’t know about? I’m not sure they are missing it (genuinely don’t know).

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James Bennett wrote: I wanted to point out a handful of things at the rare level which seem off due to changes in this iteration:

+2 Shuriken
I'm excited to see a rare shuriken back in the set, but this feels like it will be overly strong. Like others have mentioned it seems like it needs to have the "Fighters, Monk & Rogue" class restriction put back on it like all of the other shurikens . Having it printed with a +2 to hit seems really strong (especially with Enchanter's Whetstone), and it is also odd to see it in the same set as the Mighty Sling given they serve similar (but distinct) purposes.
Suggestions to fix: Either take it back down to +1 (and the uncommon back to Masterwork) or remove the to-hit bonus add in some elemental damage like we've seen in the past (e.g. Shuriken of Shock or Shuriken of Venom ).

Ioun Stone Tourmaline Tear
I was really happy with this token through the development process until the last round. I'm not against changing it slightly, but I feel the new wording just complicates it. If this was one of the small number of rares a very new player is exposed to I'm not sure its purpose would be completely clear due to the "to hit spell" language. I've never heard a DM say the monster used a "to hit" spell, and it feels likely that the clarification would be missed in the heat of the moment or would slow things down if people have to ask. This is also something which is up to the player to remember to track so it seems prudent to make it simpler.
Suggestions to fix: Either restore it to the wording from previous iterations so it is "+1 AC & -1 damage from ranged attacks (including spells)" or remove the secondary effect and just leave it at "+1 AC". I originally thought about suggesting replacing the damage reduction with something like "+1 HP" or "+1 to ___ saves" but both of those options felt like they encroached on other rare tokens (e.g. Tyr's Bracers or this year's Bracers of the Toad).

Bead of Bending
This is another token which feels like it was hit too quickly and now its power level directly conflicts with another token in the same set. See my description of the IS Tourmaline Tear above for a suggestion about how the current wording just complicates things since the same wording problem exists here, though I'm glad to see the wording is standardized across them. In addition, this token's effect is the same as the IS Tourmaline Tear right now except the IS also gets +1 AC. Given we only have one bead slot (for now anyways), it seems off that the IS gives more power since we can have 5 (or 7/9 at higher tiers) of them.
Suggestions to fix: Put this back to a -2 damage effect or change it to be something like "+2 AC against ranged attacks".

I also have a few suggestions for the UR as well based on changes in the last round:

Ring of the Drake
I'm fine with losing spell damage on this token but preserving the ranged damage bonus feels like it complicates things given the "to hit" spell interaction.
Suggestion to fix: Make the token read "+2 Fire damage to melee & thrown weapons. Shurikens gain Returning effect."

Ioun Stone Banshee Prism
Same reasoning above applies for this token as well with the interaction around "to hit spells".
Suggestion to fix: Make the token read "+2 Sonic damage to attacks with physical projectiles". Not sure this suggestion holds up well, but I was attempting to use a different term to describe "ranged attacks" excluding spells entirely.

Arcane Belt
If we drop spell damage from the Ring of the Drake, it seems reasonable to drop melee damage from this token. Suggestions to fix: Make the token read "+2 to damage with Ranged attacks (including spells); +2 to healing Spells you cast" or change the name to "Arcane Belt of Focus" and change the effect slightly to "+2 to healing, damage spells & polymorph damage".

If the Arcane Belt changes to be a belt of focus these three tokens together would form a nice triangle this year with a +2 damage bonus across every attack type. With my suggestion above thrown weapons would be the only type to go above this with a +4 damage bonus, but it is still less than the +6 it is getting now. I also like this because it would leave a pure +2 damage with spells ioun stone open for next year to round out that "set".

This post is longer than I expected and feel free to take it, leave it or pull chunks out where it makes sense.

I've seen a couple of recommendations to drop Melee and Ranged from the Ring of the Drake. I'm OK with that, but if it happens, I hope that +2 to Polymorph damage is added in. Essentially make it a Belt of Focus.

I would like to see the current damage bonus stay on the Ring of the Drake. I’m not sure we should let it turn all the Shuriken return since it makes the +2 better than the Relic Hammer (do to returning). I would be more ok with the +2 Shuriken as a UR that way it doesn’t get the whetstone bonus, or drop it back to a +1

As for the Key, it went from must have to not even on my list.
At slotless why would you not get it, at charm it is two week for my build.
Why not make it a +2 added to all healing given by Druid and Cleric(like a Focus item). That way it’s a very good token for them since it makes them so there job better, it keeps the demand high while being slotted. (I have not read the books so there may be a good story reason this can’t be done).

If the Key were a Cleric & Druid Charm granting +3 or +4 to healing spells (+4 is the equivalent of the current +2 if used with LoDS and both targets had Keys) I'd probably get two. As is, it's not worth a Charm slot for my group. I do recognize that would be buying two per group instead of 10 to cover everyone. It would eliminate the risk of the Bard mass heal bonus.

I agree completely with Brad that at +2 heal as a UR Charm this compares very poorly with the +3 heal Uncommon Linked Shirts of Healing.

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: Two questions:
Does the +7 damage on the monk legendary also add to the damage when the FoB weapons are thrown? I'm assuming yes, but want to check.

Do you know if you have plans to change the effects of Gloves of the Flying Fists? What happens when a monk equips this legendary along with those gloves?

Yes...the +7 stacks.

No plans to nerf the GotFF. Nothing special happens when using the GofFF with the Legendary.

Jeff, my recommendation about nerfing the GotFF had nothing to do with interactions with the Legendary. It was about a Monk having that one UR getting the ability to be the best damage dealing class at both Ranged and Melee. Without it the Monk is the best at Melee but not as good at Ranged, with it the Monk is at the top of both. If the GotFF ability is too powerful to include on the Legendary token, it certainly seems too powerful to be a UR. My two cents at least.

While GotFF may be problematic it is from 2014. I put it in the same category as the Assassin's Crossbow from 2015. Both items open up ranged damage totals using builds that are likely unintended in the current design space, but as long as they are not reprinted they are likely OK. As more players join the game (more conventions are added), the total percentage of players using these items will be lower. Newer players will have reasons to use items like Thor’s +5 Returning Hammer of Smiting which would otherwise be outclassed by these older legacy tokens.

OrionW wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: Two questions:
Does the +7 damage on the monk legendary also add to the damage when the FoB weapons are thrown? I'm assuming yes, but want to check.

Do you know if you have plans to change the effects of Gloves of the Flying Fists? What happens when a monk equips this legendary along with those gloves?

Yes...the +7 stacks.

No plans to nerf the GotFF. Nothing special happens when using the GofFF with the Legendary.

Jeff, my recommendation about nerfing the GotFF had nothing to do with interactions with the Legendary. It was about a Monk having that one UR getting the ability to be the best damage dealing class at both Ranged and Melee. Without it the Monk is the best at Melee but not as good at Ranged, with it the Monk is at the top of both. If the GotFF ability is too powerful to include on the Legendary token, it certainly seems too powerful to be a UR. My two cents at least.

While GotFF may be problematic it is from 2014. I put it in the same category as the Assassin's Crossbow from 2015. Both items open up ranged damage totals using builds that are likely unintended in the current design space, but as long as they are not reprinted they are likely OK. As more players join the game (more conventions are added), the total percentage of players using these items will be lower. Newer players will have reasons to use items like Thor’s +5 Returning Hammer of Smiting which would otherwise be outclassed by these older legacy tokens.

LoDS and CoS were both 2014 tokens, and that didn't stop them from being nerfed. If it's way too powerful, it doesn't really help that only a subset of players have one, because that creates a big gap between newer players and ones around when this was printed. For a top end Strength build Monk (and that's what you'd do with this token), this one UR probably gives the Monk around +20 or more to hit with ranged weapons. That seems WAY too powerful for a single UR.

The shurikens have enough novelty value for casual players it doesn't actually matter if they're balanced properly to compete well on damage. A lot of players will be pretty happy to get one with either the previous round or current round stats.

I think it's reasonably balanced with the classes that can wield to leave them with the new upgraded stats, but I really doubt there will be a mob of unhappy shuriken owners in the future if they go back down 1 level.

I think this point has probably already been made, but for anybody comparing it to the relic hammer, the ranged usability of it was reduced enough during the token development cycle I suspect a decent number of people that don't expect to go to the legendary level chose not to bother making it. It's probably not a good comparison for the shurikens, especially with the different in class list.

Mike Steele wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: Two questions:
Does the +7 damage on the monk legendary also add to the damage when the FoB weapons are thrown? I'm assuming yes, but want to check.

Do you know if you have plans to change the effects of Gloves of the Flying Fists? What happens when a monk equips this legendary along with those gloves?

Yes...the +7 stacks.

No plans to nerf the GotFF. Nothing special happens when using the GofFF with the Legendary.

Jeff, my recommendation about nerfing the GotFF had nothing to do with interactions with the Legendary. It was about a Monk having that one UR getting the ability to be the best damage dealing class at both Ranged and Melee. Without it the Monk is the best at Melee but not as good at Ranged, with it the Monk is at the top of both. If the GotFF ability is too powerful to include on the Legendary token, it certainly seems too powerful to be a UR. My two cents at least.

While GotFF may be problematic it is from 2014. I put it in the same category as the Assassin's Crossbow from 2015. Both items open up ranged damage totals using builds that are likely unintended in the current design space, but as long as they are not reprinted they are likely OK. As more players join the game (more conventions are added), the total percentage of players using these items will be lower. Newer players will have reasons to use items like Thor’s +5 Returning Hammer of Smiting which would otherwise be outclassed by these older legacy tokens.

LoDS and CoS were both 2014 tokens, and that didn't stop them from being nerfed. If it's way too powerful, it doesn't really help that only a subset of players have one, because that creates a big gap between newer players and ones around when this was printed. For a top end Strength build Monk (and that's what you'd do with this token), this one UR probably gives the Monk around +20 or more to hit with ranged weapons. That seems WAY too powerful for a single UR.

+20? Not even close.

It's closer to +10 and partially due to no good weapons with built in + to hit to put in the monk range damage shot. Unless you slot thor's and don't use shurikens (lol).

When crying out for nerfs let's please use realistic numbers.

Example -- my monk:
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/e7aed939-bca4-4cdb-acdf-45c3427188f3

And you'll notice I have +0 shurikens with whetstone equipped.