TOPIC: Final Transmuted Images

Tobin Blake wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Justice wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

ralykam wrote: Agreed, unfortunately. (+1 guard/1 game) isn’t legendary for me.

I feel the same, but I think that ship has sailed.

I agree, but it is better to know now going forward. TD will still get my money and I will save a grand over all by avoiding the HA in a year with such good UR's available. Really a win-win when you look at it.

It will be truly interesting how many HA will be made in the end.

The HA as is will be the first Legendary I make from this year's set. I don't see why any Paladin wouldn't want to be swinging the best weapon ever in the history of TD. I'm betting many will be made.

Let’s agree to disagree.

I very much agree with you PalaDan. The HA as it sits now is weaker in its average damage wheel (HA is a 10) than the Welfor's (10.5), has a bit of a potential for having a corner-case insta-kill (since to keep its unique ability viable would lock TPTB into having Evil Outsiders pretty much every year/dungeon) and is more class-limited than a Welfor's. The Lay on Hands bonus is nice, but a Paladin shouldn't be your primary healer, so this isn't really a big draw for me personally and Grace is an entirely new power altogether so...

Truthfully, I'd feel better commenting on whether or not the guard change is something that is a detractor or not if I had any clue as to the recipe to make this. The recipe will be key for whether or not it's worth making: If it requires an AoG on any path (whether to the Ava's or even just the +3), forcing the additional Guard into a 1x per game will actually make it a rather nasty step down for many Paladin players, especially since the AoG was already a required component for Giln's shield a couple years back.

As it sits now it's a very disappointing class-specific token (especially in light of the other class-specific tokens that have been/are being released) and is probably going to cause the Holy Avenger token go the way of the +2 Holy Great Sword in many Paladins' collection.

Primary recipe will not include the Amulet of Guarding since it isn’t in print. I would not be surprised to see the Holy avengers get a second recipe like the lute got and if so it might get worked into it.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Tobin Blake wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Justice wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

ralykam wrote: Agreed, unfortunately. (+1 guard/1 game) isn’t legendary for me.

I feel the same, but I think that ship has sailed.

I agree, but it is better to know now going forward. TD will still get my money and I will save a grand over all by avoiding the HA in a year with such good UR's available. Really a win-win when you look at it.

It will be truly interesting how many HA will be made in the end.

The HA as is will be the first Legendary I make from this year's set. I don't see why any Paladin wouldn't want to be swinging the best weapon ever in the history of TD. I'm betting many will be made.

Let’s agree to disagree.

I very much agree with you PalaDan. The HA as it sits now is weaker in its average damage wheel (HA is a 10) than the Welfor's (10.5), has a bit of a potential for having a corner-case insta-kill (since to keep its unique ability viable would lock TPTB into having Evil Outsiders pretty much every year/dungeon) and is more class-limited than a Welfor's. The Lay on Hands bonus is nice, but a Paladin shouldn't be your primary healer, so this isn't really a big draw for me personally and Grace is an entirely new power altogether so...

Truthfully, I'd feel better commenting on whether or not the guard change is something that is a detractor or not if I had any clue as to the recipe to make this. The recipe will be key for whether or not it's worth making: If it requires an AoG on any path (whether to the Ava's or even just the +3), forcing the additional Guard into a 1x per game will actually make it a rather nasty step down for many Paladin players, especially since the AoG was already a required component for Giln's shield a couple years back.

As it sits now it's a very disappointing class-specific token (especially in light of the other class-specific tokens that have been/are being released) and is probably going to cause the Holy Avenger token go the way of the +2 Holy Great Sword in many Paladins' collection.

Primary recipe will not include the Amulet of Guarding since it isn’t in print. I would not be surprised to see the Holy avengers get a second recipe like the lute got and if so it might get worked into it.

Well, presuming it doesn't require the AoG in any way it would at least give those who missed out on the AoG a *chance* to Guard multiple people at some critical point so it would soften that aspect a touch.

That said though, as the token sits right now it's definitely not worth the expense of an Eldritch bar, additional UR tokens and Wish ring (or 15k GP) to make for me. Nor does it seem to be viewed that way by many of the other paladin players who've spoken on this thread.

I thought the goal of the Legendary tokens was to give each class a thematically-appropriate class-specific token?

Being able to dole out large amounts of healing seems to be much more the Cleric's hat in TD, so additional Lay on Hands comes off like it's trying to further dilute the specialty of that class, the creating the new Grace ability specifically for this token seems odd to me from a class standpoint since Paladins have no existing 're-roll' type ability natively (if there's another token that gives this ability other than Ava's I rescind this objection, although with reservations), and setting the +1 Guard as a once per game situation basically creates a situation where you're getting a bonus for all that cost that's not even as good as a single UR token. Heck, I'd have even been fine if the +1 Guard ability was capped at 2 and this token didn't stack with the AoG. At least then it would've tied into the existing abilities of the class without stepping on another's functional toes.

The 'kill on 20' aspect I've already spoken on in my last post.

I just feel that all in all the Paladin token has become the weakest of the class-specific ones now, and it's rather disappointing to see.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Tobin Blake wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Justice wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

ralykam wrote: Agreed, unfortunately. (+1 guard/1 game) isn’t legendary for me.

I feel the same, but I think that ship has sailed.

I agree, but it is better to know now going forward. TD will still get my money and I will save a grand over all by avoiding the HA in a year with such good UR's available. Really a win-win when you look at it.

It will be truly interesting how many HA will be made in the end.

The HA as is will be the first Legendary I make from this year's set. I don't see why any Paladin wouldn't want to be swinging the best weapon ever in the history of TD. I'm betting many will be made.

Let’s agree to disagree.

I very much agree with you PalaDan. The HA as it sits now is weaker in its average damage wheel (HA is a 10) than the Welfor's (10.5), has a bit of a potential for having a corner-case insta-kill (since to keep its unique ability viable would lock TPTB into having Evil Outsiders pretty much every year/dungeon) and is more class-limited than a Welfor's. The Lay on Hands bonus is nice, but a Paladin shouldn't be your primary healer, so this isn't really a big draw for me personally and Grace is an entirely new power altogether so...

Truthfully, I'd feel better commenting on whether or not the guard change is something that is a detractor or not if I had any clue as to the recipe to make this. The recipe will be key for whether or not it's worth making: If it requires an AoG on any path (whether to the Ava's or even just the +3), forcing the additional Guard into a 1x per game will actually make it a rather nasty step down for many Paladin players, especially since the AoG was already a required component for Giln's shield a couple years back.

As it sits now it's a very disappointing class-specific token (especially in light of the other class-specific tokens that have been/are being released) and is probably going to cause the Holy Avenger token go the way of the +2 Holy Great Sword in many Paladins' collection.

Primary recipe will not include the Amulet of Guarding since it isn’t in print. I would not be surprised to see the Holy avengers get a second recipe like the lute got and if so it might get worked into it.

I am wondering if the +2 Holy Great Sword will be an alternate in the Relic Recipe.

Mike Steele wrote: I am wondering if the +2 Holy Great Sword will be an alternate in the Relic Recipe.

Certainly there is precedent for either the relic (rogue, druid) or the legendary (lute).

While they certainly don't owe us anything, I would like to see a transmute path from Welfor's.

I would happily not have that if it mea t guard would be all game long, even if that meant a reversal of stacking.

Mike Steele wrote: I am wondering if the +2 Holy Great Sword will be an alternate in the Relic Recipe.

That would be something nice to see for the 'old timer' paladins.

That said, unless it was bundled with greatly reducing the other ingredients necessary to make an Ava's, it still isn't really worth making the Legendary as the token stands right now unless you have a great desire to perform the Cleric's healing role for yourself.

After thinking about it a bit, I was originally planning on picking up the relic holy avenger as I want to use paladin as my backup class. As it stands I'm not interested in the auto kill or grace, and I don't think lay on hands justifies getting a relic.

Bummer.

Tobin Blake wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Tobin Blake wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Justice wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

ralykam wrote: Agreed, unfortunately. (+1 guard/1 game) isn’t legendary for me.

I feel the same, but I think that ship has sailed.

I agree, but it is better to know now going forward. TD will still get my money and I will save a grand over all by avoiding the HA in a year with such good UR's available. Really a win-win when you look at it.

It will be truly interesting how many HA will be made in the end.

The HA as is will be the first Legendary I make from this year's set. I don't see why any Paladin wouldn't want to be swinging the best weapon ever in the history of TD. I'm betting many will be made.

Let’s agree to disagree.

I very much agree with you PalaDan. The HA as it sits now is weaker in its average damage wheel (HA is a 10) than the Welfor's (10.5), has a bit of a potential for having a corner-case insta-kill (since to keep its unique ability viable would lock TPTB into having Evil Outsiders pretty much every year/dungeon) and is more class-limited than a Welfor's. The Lay on Hands bonus is nice, but a Paladin shouldn't be your primary healer, so this isn't really a big draw for me personally and Grace is an entirely new power altogether so...

Truthfully, I'd feel better commenting on whether or not the guard change is something that is a detractor or not if I had any clue as to the recipe to make this. The recipe will be key for whether or not it's worth making: If it requires an AoG on any path (whether to the Ava's or even just the +3), forcing the additional Guard into a 1x per game will actually make it a rather nasty step down for many Paladin players, especially since the AoG was already a required component for Giln's shield a couple years back.

As it sits now it's a very disappointing class-specific token (especially in light of the other class-specific tokens that have been/are being released) and is probably going to cause the Holy Avenger token go the way of the +2 Holy Great Sword in many Paladins' collection.

Primary recipe will not include the Amulet of Guarding since it isn’t in print. I would not be surprised to see the Holy avengers get a second recipe like the lute got and if so it might get worked into it.

Well, presuming it doesn't require the AoG in any way it would at least give those who missed out on the AoG a *chance* to Guard multiple people at some critical point so it would soften that aspect a touch.

That said though, as the token sits right now it's definitely not worth the expense of an Eldritch bar, additional UR tokens and Wish ring (or 15k GP) to make for me. Nor does it seem to be viewed that way by many of the other paladin players who've spoken on this thread.

I thought the goal of the Legendary tokens was to give each class a thematically-appropriate class-specific token?

Being able to dole out large amounts of healing seems to be much more the Cleric's hat in TD, so additional Lay on Hands comes off like it's trying to further dilute the specialty of that class, the creating the new Grace ability specifically for this token seems odd to me from a class standpoint since Paladins have no existing 're-roll' type ability natively (if there's another token that gives this ability other than Ava's I rescind this objection, although with reservations), and setting the +1 Guard as a once per game situation basically creates a situation where you're getting a bonus for all that cost that's not even as good as a single UR token. Heck, I'd have even been fine if the +1 Guard ability was capped at 2 and this token didn't stack with the AoG. At least then it would've tied into the existing abilities of the class without stepping on another's functional toes.

The 'kill on 20' aspect I've already spoken on in my last post.

I just feel that all in all the Paladin token has become the weakest of the class-specific ones now, and it's rather disappointing to see.

You mention that you'd be ok with the Guard ability on the HA to be capped at +2 but not being stackable with the AoG. I wonder what the other Pally's out there would think of this? One of the huge benefits of the HA is that you still get to slot a Neck of your choice AND that the AoG stacks. This is often not mentioned in the comments when people say the HA isn't good enough.

For all you other Pally's out there would you be ok with the AoG not stacking if TD bumped the sword up to a max of 2 Guards per adventure?

Rob F wrote:

Tobin Blake wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Tobin Blake wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Justice wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

ralykam wrote: Agreed, unfortunately. (+1 guard/1 game) isn’t legendary for me.

I feel the same, but I think that ship has sailed.

I agree, but it is better to know now going forward. TD will still get my money and I will save a grand over all by avoiding the HA in a year with such good UR's available. Really a win-win when you look at it.

It will be truly interesting how many HA will be made in the end.

The HA as is will be the first Legendary I make from this year's set. I don't see why any Paladin wouldn't want to be swinging the best weapon ever in the history of TD. I'm betting many will be made.

Let’s agree to disagree.

I very much agree with you PalaDan. The HA as it sits now is weaker in its average damage wheel (HA is a 10) than the Welfor's (10.5), has a bit of a potential for having a corner-case insta-kill (since to keep its unique ability viable would lock TPTB into having Evil Outsiders pretty much every year/dungeon) and is more class-limited than a Welfor's. The Lay on Hands bonus is nice, but a Paladin shouldn't be your primary healer, so this isn't really a big draw for me personally and Grace is an entirely new power altogether so...

Truthfully, I'd feel better commenting on whether or not the guard change is something that is a detractor or not if I had any clue as to the recipe to make this. The recipe will be key for whether or not it's worth making: If it requires an AoG on any path (whether to the Ava's or even just the +3), forcing the additional Guard into a 1x per game will actually make it a rather nasty step down for many Paladin players, especially since the AoG was already a required component for Giln's shield a couple years back.

As it sits now it's a very disappointing class-specific token (especially in light of the other class-specific tokens that have been/are being released) and is probably going to cause the Holy Avenger token go the way of the +2 Holy Great Sword in many Paladins' collection.

Primary recipe will not include the Amulet of Guarding since it isn’t in print. I would not be surprised to see the Holy avengers get a second recipe like the lute got and if so it might get worked into it.

Well, presuming it doesn't require the AoG in any way it would at least give those who missed out on the AoG a *chance* to Guard multiple people at some critical point so it would soften that aspect a touch.

That said though, as the token sits right now it's definitely not worth the expense of an Eldritch bar, additional UR tokens and Wish ring (or 15k GP) to make for me. Nor does it seem to be viewed that way by many of the other paladin players who've spoken on this thread.

I thought the goal of the Legendary tokens was to give each class a thematically-appropriate class-specific token?

Being able to dole out large amounts of healing seems to be much more the Cleric's hat in TD, so additional Lay on Hands comes off like it's trying to further dilute the specialty of that class, the creating the new Grace ability specifically for this token seems odd to me from a class standpoint since Paladins have no existing 're-roll' type ability natively (if there's another token that gives this ability other than Ava's I rescind this objection, although with reservations), and setting the +1 Guard as a once per game situation basically creates a situation where you're getting a bonus for all that cost that's not even as good as a single UR token. Heck, I'd have even been fine if the +1 Guard ability was capped at 2 and this token didn't stack with the AoG. At least then it would've tied into the existing abilities of the class without stepping on another's functional toes.

The 'kill on 20' aspect I've already spoken on in my last post.

I just feel that all in all the Paladin token has become the weakest of the class-specific ones now, and it's rather disappointing to see.

You mention that you'd be ok with the Guard ability on the HA to be capped at +2 but not being stackable with the AoG. I wonder what the other Pally's out there would think of this? One of the huge benefits of the HA is that you still get to slot a Neck of your choice AND that the AoG stacks. This is often not mentioned in the comments when people say the HA isn't good enough.

For all you other Pally's out there would you be ok with the AoG not stacking if TD bumped the sword up to a max of 2 Guards per adventure?

Yes I would be fine with AoG not stacking to get full time guard added to the Holy Avenger. Still I think it’s too late for anything to be done about it.

i suggested this in one of the earlier transmute treads.
Yep I’d be ok with it if it means whole game guard. “Enhanced +1 guard” I think is the term I used.
I also wouldn’t mind seeing a +1 to hit for the party.


quote="Rob F" post=348111]

Tobin Blake wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Tobin Blake wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Justice wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

ralykam wrote: Agreed, unfortunately. (+1 guard/1 game) isn’t legendary for me.

I feel the same, but I think that ship has sailed.

I agree, but it is better to know now going forward. TD will still get my money and I will save a grand over all by avoiding the HA in a year with such good UR's available. Really a win-win when you look at it.

It will be truly interesting how many HA will be made in the end.

The HA as is will be the first Legendary I make from this year's set. I don't see why any Paladin wouldn't want to be swinging the best weapon ever in the history of TD. I'm betting many will be made.

Let’s agree to disagree.

I very much agree with you PalaDan. The HA as it sits now is weaker in its average damage wheel (HA is a 10) than the Welfor's (10.5), has a bit of a potential for having a corner-case insta-kill (since to keep its unique ability viable would lock TPTB into having Evil Outsiders pretty much every year/dungeon) and is more class-limited than a Welfor's. The Lay on Hands bonus is nice, but a Paladin shouldn't be your primary healer, so this isn't really a big draw for me personally and Grace is an entirely new power altogether so...

Truthfully, I'd feel better commenting on whether or not the guard change is something that is a detractor or not if I had any clue as to the recipe to make this. The recipe will be key for whether or not it's worth making: If it requires an AoG on any path (whether to the Ava's or even just the +3), forcing the additional Guard into a 1x per game will actually make it a rather nasty step down for many Paladin players, especially since the AoG was already a required component for Giln's shield a couple years back.

As it sits now it's a very disappointing class-specific token (especially in light of the other class-specific tokens that have been/are being released) and is probably going to cause the Holy Avenger token go the way of the +2 Holy Great Sword in many Paladins' collection.

Primary recipe will not include the Amulet of Guarding since it isn’t in print. I would not be surprised to see the Holy avengers get a second recipe like the lute got and if so it might get worked into it.

Well, presuming it doesn't require the AoG in any way it would at least give those who missed out on the AoG a *chance* to Guard multiple people at some critical point so it would soften that aspect a touch.

That said though, as the token sits right now it's definitely not worth the expense of an Eldritch bar, additional UR tokens and Wish ring (or 15k GP) to make for me. Nor does it seem to be viewed that way by many of the other paladin players who've spoken on this thread.

I thought the goal of the Legendary tokens was to give each class a thematically-appropriate class-specific token?

Being able to dole out large amounts of healing seems to be much more the Cleric's hat in TD, so additional Lay on Hands comes off like it's trying to further dilute the specialty of that class, the creating the new Grace ability specifically for this token seems odd to me from a class standpoint since Paladins have no existing 're-roll' type ability natively (if there's another token that gives this ability other than Ava's I rescind this objection, although with reservations), and setting the +1 Guard as a once per game situation basically creates a situation where you're getting a bonus for all that cost that's not even as good as a single UR token. Heck, I'd have even been fine if the +1 Guard ability was capped at 2 and this token didn't stack with the AoG. At least then it would've tied into the existing abilities of the class without stepping on another's functional toes.

The 'kill on 20' aspect I've already spoken on in my last post.

I just feel that all in all the Paladin token has become the weakest of the class-specific ones now, and it's rather disappointing to see.

You mention that you'd be ok with the Guard ability on the HA to be capped at +2 but not being stackable with the AoG. I wonder what the other Pally's out there would think of this? One of the huge benefits of the HA is that you still get to slot a Neck of your choice AND that the AoG stacks. This is often not mentioned in the comments when people say the HA isn't good enough.

For all you other Pally's out there would you be ok with the AoG not stacking if TD bumped the sword up to a max of 2 Guards per adventure?[/quote]

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions. It has been a pleasure to work with y'all.

Jeff Martin wrote: Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions. It has been a pleasure to work with y'all.

Thanks, Jeff! It's been a pleasure on this end also.