TOPIC: Build Diversity

Fiddy wrote: Why not explore other spaces? Flanking is underused by many rogues I see, why not expand on it? How about a token that lets you use a second puck when you flank? Or that provides some bonus to pucks touching yours when you flank?

I would just like to point out that almost every year I suggest tokens that boost Flanking. And every time they are either glossed over or shot down.

Doesn't this also come down to what the goal is, though? Are we seeing it as building experiences and role playing, looking for more ways to bypass/work puzzles using things like rope and wisdom/intelligence, or sticking to combat as the thing? If it is purely combat, build diversity really isn't as exciting to me, to be honest. I was always more interested in the immersion aspect and the character than how to fight better or in different ways.

Given the limited ways to bypass puzzles, unless more freedom is given in puzzle design and solving them, I don't know how to get around it.

(1) reprinting great OOP tokens and/or (2) printing comparable new tokens good enough that some people will offer the OOP's for trade, making them broadly available again (but of course this doesn't work so well if the OOP and the new token can be used together). On that note, I hope someday TPTB decide that it's acceptable to reprint transmutes.

I actually hate #1 because simply making the current BiS tokens more prevalent is the opposite of diversity. It just entrenches them more.

#2 is much better

Brad Mortensen wrote:

(1) reprinting great OOP tokens and/or (2) printing comparable new tokens good enough that some people will offer the OOP's for trade, making them broadly available again (but of course this doesn't work so well if the OOP and the new token can be used together). On that note, I hope someday TPTB decide that it's acceptable to reprint transmutes.

I actually hate #1 because simply making the current BiS tokens more prevalent is the opposite of diversity. It just entrenches them more.

#2 is much better

#1 is just of way of saying - I got mine, tough luck.

Better to reprint all the popular tokens and come up with interesting alternatives.

Ex : reprint Mithral gauntlets.

Also create a new token - gloves of chucking. +3 str, +2 Dex, thrown weapons gain returning.

Maybe that makes for an interesting thrown weapon build.

Josh EC wrote: Doesn't this also come down to what the goal is, though? Are we seeing it as building experiences and role playing, looking for more ways to bypass/work puzzles using things like rope and wisdom/intelligence, or sticking to combat as the thing? If it is purely combat, build diversity really isn't as exciting to me, to be honest. I was always more interested in the immersion aspect and the character than how to fight better or in different ways.

Given the limited ways to bypass puzzles, unless more freedom is given in puzzle design and solving them, I don't know how to get around it.

Yes, I was going to bring this up, and go a bit further. Last year, I heard a DM tell another player that his Boots of Water Walking wouldn't work on the river/runes puzzle. If not then, then when (the answer being specifically designed fights that include water, I'm afraid). I was told that my monk immunity to poison didn't work, and that my RoSEC couldn't prevent fire damage. In both cases I asked if the poison/fire were actually Eldritch, and was told no, just special versions of the normal damage that bypassed my class power and very expensive token, respectively. And these were was on normal or hardcore

I've wondered more than once, why am I spending arguably insane amounts of money on these tokens, if they aren't going to do anything as often as not. The only things that don't seem to get bypassed are what goes on the party card. In that case, is it any great surprise that player ignore creative tokens (RoSEC being a borderline exception due to having Eldritch retribution and a set power) and just pile on to hit, damage, AC and Saves?

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

(1) reprinting great OOP tokens and/or (2) printing comparable new tokens good enough that some people will offer the OOP's for trade, making them broadly available again (but of course this doesn't work so well if the OOP and the new token can be used together). On that note, I hope someday TPTB decide that it's acceptable to reprint transmutes.

I actually hate #1 because simply making the current BiS tokens more prevalent is the opposite of diversity. It just entrenches them more.

#2 is much better

#1 is just of way of saying - I got mine, tough luck.

Better to reprint all the popular tokens and come up with interesting alternatives.

Ex : reprint Mithral gauntlets.

Also create a new token - gloves of chucking. +3 str, +2 Dex, thrown weapons gain returning.

Maybe that makes for an interesting thrown weapon build.

I’m offended by your “I got mine” crack.

We only get 20 URs a year. Every reprint of an old token takes up a space that could have been used to create an alternative to give the diversity everyone claims they want. That’s just math.

And if the alternative is just as good in a different way as the Mithral Gauntlets, demand for them will drop, and so will the price.

Reprinting old tokens only makes them cheaper and does NOTHING o increase build diversity.

So pick #1 or #2.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

(1) reprinting great OOP tokens and/or (2) printing comparable new tokens good enough that some people will offer the OOP's for trade, making them broadly available again (but of course this doesn't work so well if the OOP and the new token can be used together). On that note, I hope someday TPTB decide that it's acceptable to reprint transmutes.

I actually hate #1 because simply making the current BiS tokens more prevalent is the opposite of diversity. It just entrenches them more.

#2 is much better

#1 is just of way of saying - I got mine, tough luck.

Better to reprint all the popular tokens and come up with interesting alternatives.

Ex : reprint Mithral gauntlets.

Also create a new token - gloves of chucking. +3 str, +2 Dex, thrown weapons gain returning.

Maybe that makes for an interesting thrown weapon build.

I’m offended by your “I got mine” crack.

We only get 20 URs a year. Every reprint of an old token takes up a space that could have been used to create an alternative to give the diversity everyone claims they want. That’s just math.

And if the alternative is just as good in a different way as the Mithral Gauntlets, demand for them will drop, and so will the price.

Reprinting old tokens only makes them cheaper and does NOTHING o increase build diversity.

So pick #1 or #2.

There is no option or player agency in your method. The only variety is based on when your started played TD - that is forced / false diversity

Reprints Increase diversity as long as tokens made after are viable replacements. Additionally , reprints slow creep and reduce development overhead - 5 reprints per year is probably ideal, especially for the 5+ year old tokens that aren't available anywhere.

Another Perfect example - hand of glory. Completely unavailable and a reprint would be way less creep than a charm that obsoletes both the gloves and hand it glory.

Endgame wrote: Reprints Increase diversity as long as tokens made after are viable replacements.

I'm not sure how you figure this - could you expand on it?

The way I see reprints working (in practice) is that people lobby for reprints of items which are:
* Powerful
* Out of Print
* Cost too much to get on the secondary market.
In other words, they want the same tokens which other people have entrenched in their builds and once they get those tokens, their build becomes more like those power builds: ie, less diverse.

As far as "Viable Replacements" goes... My experience is that once enough people get their hands on that desired token, there stops being any push to make alternatives. People say "I wouldn't use that because I already have $OriginalToken in that slot. Why would I pay money for something not clearly better?" and then lobby instead for tokens which are more powerful, before they will change their build.

Additionally , reprints slow creep and reduce development overhead - 5 reprints per year is probably ideal, especially for the 5+ year old tokens that aren't available anywhere.

Agreed: Reprints slow power creep. What they do is to spread the level of power more evenly across the player base (as new players gain access to desirable older tokens) - which isn't inherently a bad thing! - and is probably what you mean with the "I got mine. Tough luck for you!" comment... right?

But I think the players who oppose reprints are less about wanting to keep the powerful stuff for themselves, and more about wanting options so that there's more diversity going forward. After all, if we just keep Reprinting the Power 9* it reduces incentive to come up with different cool stuff.

Another Perfect example - hand of glory. Completely unavailable and a reprint would be way less creep than a charm that obsoletes both the gloves and hand it glory.

Yep. A reprint would be less creep. And I think that since Class Specific Legendaries are taking over the Neck slot, a reprint of a powerful Neck item would be good, and encourage choices. The thing which worries me (and might worry the token development team) is that introducing a powerful and moderately inexpensive neck item at this point in the process might cause the token-purchasing player base to decide *against* making a class Relic or Legendary. If I wanted to promote choices, I'd wait until the year after the Legendary Neck items were all done, and then reprint Hand of Glory / Charm Necklace / Stu-Pendant or somesuch.

(Luckily, I'm not in charge and thus don't have to read through pages of people telling me how they'll never use those cool neck tokens anymore because their neck slot is locked in and they'd rather see a different token instead of clogging up design space with too many reprints )

I am really impressed with the job that the Token Development team does every year: walking the line between "entrenched" collectors (myself included), and up&coming collectors, and new players who haven't yet discovered the joy of buying an UR. And I occasionally wonder what drinking games they play while reading the forums, in order to endure the.. i dunno.. nineteenth reiteration of the same individual asking in 3 different threads for their pet token idea.

*Forgive me, I don't play Magic... so if my reference is inaccurate or misplaced, I apologize.

I don't think the Hand of Glory or even the Gloves of Glory are a good example. Trading out a slot for a weak slot is interesting, but even in a world without slot expanders, is generally not going to be a good trade off.

I would be curious to hear who used the HoG back in the day. I have one, but I never used it, and have more than once lobbied for a transmute to upgrade it to something more balanced.

As someone said in another thread, maybe it is time to increase the number of tokens printed in a year? Just increasing the number of different URs in a year could potentially have a significant impact on how much variety we get (assuming those added URs are used wisely). We've barely got enough UR spots to cover every token slot (no URs in the 2020 set for hands or feet).

If it made sense to increase other rarities, I'd also support that. I'm just less certain of the impact changing the C/UC/R numbers does to ten packs and the overall balancing if trade goods and such.

Raven wrote:

Endgame wrote: Reprints Increase diversity as long as tokens made after are viable replacements.

I'm not sure how you figure this - could you expand on it?

The way I see reprints working (in practice) is that people lobby for reprints of items which are:
* Powerful
* Out of Print
* Cost too much to get on the secondary market.
In other words, they want the same tokens which other people have entrenched in their builds and once they get those tokens, their build becomes more like those power builds: ie, less diverse.

As far as "Viable Replacements" goes... My experience is that once enough people get their hands on that desired token, there stops being any push to make alternatives. People say "I wouldn't use that because I already have $OriginalToken in that slot. Why would I pay money for something not clearly better?" and then lobby instead for tokens which are more powerful, before they will change their build.

Lets look at the gloves spot, since it was one of my sources of frustration when I started exploring the UR options available to me. I'm building for cleric, with fall back to Paladin then fighter as my class choices, and I had acquired Gloves of Ogre Power at a prior Gen Con. Sounds like a perfect place for an upgrade.

Per the TD app, my options are:

Gloves of the Brute: Not really interested as I don't want to a dex penalty to my already dismal dex as a cleric. I also want to be able to shoot things with a bow with my alternate classes, so pass on the dex penalty.
Gloves of Linked Fury: I'm not using 2H weapons, but this might make an interesting option for a fall back paladin and fighter - use a big 2H weapon instead of sword and board.
Gloves of Weapon Finesse: +3 to hit. Now we're talking - my low to hit was causing me issues at Gen Con
Mithral Gauntlets: Ok, 4 Str is double what I've got now, interesting when compared to the Gloves of Weapon Finesse.

So with these options in mind, immediately after Gen Con 2018, I went looking for UR gloves in this priority:

1) Gloves of Weapon Finesse
2) Mithral Gauntlets
Distant 3rd) Gloves of linked fury (not applicable to my main class, but for the right price, maybe an option)

Gloves of Weapon Finesse - not in stock at Trent Tokens, TD Tavern, Discount-Dungeon, or Mike Steele's forum shop. Uhh... ok. Lets move to the next option
Mithral Gauntlets. Not in stock at Trent Tokens, TD Tavern, Discount-Dungeon, or Mike Steele's forum shop.
Well, maybe I give a Linked fury a try? Guess what, not in stock at any of the stores.

At this point, I think Fine, lets check for Gloves of the Brute. Available only at TD tavern for about $300?!? Well, I guess I can focus on other areas of my build. Maybe I can use gloves of glory to get another ring for some extra damage and eventually a +3 Ring of Focus. Guess what... only available at TD tavern for about 300.

For me there were 5 different build options that would give different effects, and each different than the other, and almost none were actually available.

Fast forward a few weeks to token design time. Some vets were actively arguing against reprints of those very tokens (they already had theirs), while in other threads there were complains about build diversity. Diverse options exist... but you just can't buy them because the newest of those tokens are from 2015, and the oldest are from 2010. There can't be more than a few hundred of the 2010 tokens at this point with a TD base that has to be at least 10x larger than that.

So, what did I land on gloves wise? Well, I bought 2 options. Gloves of healing and Gauntlets of the Midgard Serpent (little note, all 5 regular players in my party have midgard serpent because they are the only thing readily available).

With the 2020 set, gloves of healing will become obsolete due to Gloves of Focus, so no build variety there.

Raven wrote:

Additionally , reprints slow creep and reduce development overhead - 5 reprints per year is probably ideal, especially for the 5+ year old tokens that aren't available anywhere.

Agreed: Reprints slow power creep. What they do is to spread the level of power more evenly across the player base (as new players gain access to desirable older tokens) - which isn't inherently a bad thing! - and is probably what you mean with the "I got mine. Tough luck for you!" comment... right?

But I think the players who oppose reprints are less about wanting to keep the powerful stuff for themselves, and more about wanting options so that there's more diversity going forward. After all, if we just keep Reprinting the Power 9* it reduces incentive to come up with different cool stuff.

Given my gloves example, I don't think there is one option that is dramatically more powerful than the other options, its just a complete lack of availability that is the problem. By arguing against the reprints, I got (and still get) a distinct vibe of "we've already got these items, make the new players use something else to keep diversity and tough luck for them if they want a 2010 token". My guess - if you reprinted all 5 of the above gloves in the same set, I'll bet you wouldn't see a dramatic lean toward one token, with one exception: There would be minimal sales of the Gloves of Glory if the Charm of Glory is printed. Charm slots are completely uncontested with the option to take up to 10 of them in a build with the 2020 set.

Raven wrote:

Another Perfect example - hand of glory. Completely unavailable and a reprint would be way less creep than a charm that obsoletes both the gloves and hand it glory.

Yep. A reprint would be less creep. And I think that since Class Specific Legendaries are taking over the Neck slot, a reprint of a powerful Neck item would be good, and encourage choices. The thing which worries me (and might worry the token development team) is that introducing a powerful and moderately inexpensive neck item at this point in the process might cause the token-purchasing player base to decide *against* making a class Relic or Legendary. If I wanted to promote choices, I'd wait until the year after the Legendary Neck items were all done, and then reprint Hand of Glory / Charm Necklace / Stu-Pendant or somesuch.

Personally when it comes to Relic vs Ultra Rare, I'm looking at how the new Lucky Set is severely encroaching on the Blessed Redoubt set, and how the blessed tempest gloves provided the +3 Ring of Focus effect for offensive casters in a 4*. I was planning on going down the relic path for armor, but with a little more context about how fast relics are getting eclipsed by UR, I think I'm just going to hold off and see how things shake out.

Raven wrote: (Luckily, I'm not in charge and thus don't have to read through pages of people telling me how they'll never use those cool neck tokens anymore because their neck slot is locked in and they'd rather see a different token instead of clogging up design space with too many reprints )

I am really impressed with the job that the Token Development team does every year: walking the line between "entrenched" collectors (myself included), and up&coming collectors, and new players who haven't yet discovered the joy of buying an UR. And I occasionally wonder what drinking games they play while reading the forums, in order to endure the.. i dunno.. nineteenth reiteration of the same individual asking in 3 different threads for their pet token idea.

*Forgive me, I don't play Magic... so if my reference is inaccurate or misplaced, I apologize.

Agreed on trying to balance what everyone wants. Its not a simple job, thats for sure. And I am totally guilty of making the same points 4 iterations in a row.

Raven wrote:

Endgame wrote: Reprints Increase diversity as long as tokens made after are viable replacements.

I'm not sure how you figure this - could you expand on it?

The way I see reprints working (in practice) is that people lobby for reprints of items which are:
* Powerful
* Out of Print
* Cost too much to get on the secondary market.
In other words, they want the same tokens which other people have entrenched in their builds and once they get those tokens, their build becomes more like those power builds: ie, less diverse.

As far as "Viable Replacements" goes... My experience is that once enough people get their hands on that desired token, there stops being any push to make alternatives. People say "I wouldn't use that because I already have $OriginalToken in that slot. Why would I pay money for something not clearly better?" and then lobby instead for tokens which are more powerful, before they will change their build.

Additionally , reprints slow creep and reduce development overhead - 5 reprints per year is probably ideal, especially for the 5+ year old tokens that aren't available anywhere.

Agreed: Reprints slow power creep. What they do is to spread the level of power more evenly across the player base (as new players gain access to desirable older tokens) - which isn't inherently a bad thing! - and is probably what you mean with the "I got mine. Tough luck for you!" comment... right?

But I think the players who oppose reprints are less about wanting to keep the powerful stuff for themselves, and more about wanting options so that there's more diversity going forward. After all, if we just keep Reprinting the Power 9* it reduces incentive to come up with different cool stuff.

Another Perfect example - hand of glory. Completely unavailable and a reprint would be way less creep than a charm that obsoletes both the gloves and hand it glory.

Yep. A reprint would be less creep. And I think that since Class Specific Legendaries are taking over the Neck slot, a reprint of a powerful Neck item would be good, and encourage choices. The thing which worries me (and might worry the token development team) is that introducing a powerful and moderately inexpensive neck item at this point in the process might cause the token-purchasing player base to decide *against* making a class Relic or Legendary. If I wanted to promote choices, I'd wait until the year after the Legendary Neck items were all done, and then reprint Hand of Glory / Charm Necklace / Stu-Pendant or somesuch.

(Luckily, I'm not in charge and thus don't have to read through pages of people telling me how they'll never use those cool neck tokens anymore because their neck slot is locked in and they'd rather see a different token instead of clogging up design space with too many reprints )

I am really impressed with the job that the Token Development team does every year: walking the line between "entrenched" collectors (myself included), and up&coming collectors, and new players who haven't yet discovered the joy of buying an UR. And I occasionally wonder what drinking games they play while reading the forums, in order to endure the.. i dunno.. nineteenth reiteration of the same individual asking in 3 different threads for their pet token idea.

*Forgive me, I don't play Magic... so if my reference is inaccurate or misplaced, I apologize.

There are drinking games!?!?!? Someone send me the rules.. things just got interesting.