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TOPIC: Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish

Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 3 weeks ago #85

If ranged FoB gets nerfed on the legendary, I would rather see it get removed entirely and something like an additional +3 psychic power uses putting the legendary at 5 or more uses of psychic powers.

Nerfing ranged FoB this late in the revision cycle would be a very drastic last minute change and is not something I want to see at this point in the token development cycle.

While I would be okay with something like +6 dmg, psychic power T-5 + 4 psychic uses, I am just one person and I would not be surprised if other monks hated it.
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.
Last edit: by Philip Goodman.
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 3 weeks ago #86

Rob F wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Rob F wrote:

PalaDan wrote: Still not understanding how the AoG/Guard on HA combo is being considered so unbalancing. Neither does the “free neck slot” argument.

Fighters will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including Welfor’s.
Barbarians will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including the deathcleaver.
Monks -> neck + Asher’s
Rangers -> neck + Io’s

They’re all getting bumps to their ability to attack. Extra guard bumps a paladin’s ability to defend.


Your correct that the classes you mentioned all will get to equip their Legendary weapon and their Legendary neck slot. The difference though is in the powers of the Legendary weapons beyond just the damage. Welfor's and Cleaver have none. Asher's two points of poison which most are immune to, and Io's extra crit range but a big stat to get there. With the HA you could make a case that just the powers of the sword alone could be combined into a powerful Token. And these powers are now being put on a weapon which takes up no slot. What Token could be made from the powers of the other Legendary weapons? +2 poison damage, so maybe a Rare at best. And 18-20 crit but must have 20 Dex. That's how I see there being a difference in the weapons. The HA as is will become the most powerful weapon ever created.


You're absolutely right, but part of issue hidden there is that Welfor's (at least) is weaker than it should be (given the classes it is restricted to and the weapons available with fewer restrictions). We didn't reign in Asher's or Thor's enough when they were made. Welfor's really ought to be bumped up (via some TokenDB errata) or replaced with a newer Legendary. But we're unlikely to get a new Legendary weapon for Fighters and their kin for several years, since next year the Fighters get their necklace.

I think it is somewhat appropriate for the HA to be the current most powerful weapon, at least until there is one that Fighters can use.


I wouldn't want to see a Paladin weapon more powerful than ones Fighters and Barbarians can use, since fighting is pretty much all those classes do, while the Paladin has other abilities. Like you said, it will likely be years before the Fighters get another Legendary weapon. Since this sword has so many other abilities, it's actual damage should be below the other Legendary weapons that don't have all the bonus abilities.


Again, we're comparing the HA to other legendary weapons in a vacuum. Yes, the HA will compound with AoG, but so will the older legendary weapons with the legendary neck slots:
Ranger with Io’s:
• 10-20 damage wheel
• Criticals on 18-20
• +4 Con
• +9 to damage with ranged attacks,
• 2 scrolls per game
• Animal friend
Barbarian with Averon’s:
• 8-21 damage wheel
• +10 to damage
• +1 Rage
• Fury 2/game
Monk with 1 Asher’s:
• 8-13 damage wheel (includes 2 poison damage)
• +6 FoB sacred damage
• Stun on 18-20
• FoB on ranged attacks
• T5 psy power
• +1 psy power
Bard with Wydseth’s – can equip Thor’s:
• 6-11 damage wheel
• Crit on 19-20
• Both melee and ranged w/returning
• +4 hit/damage for the entire party
• May perform any standard action while using bardsong
Druid with Drue’s:
• 6-13 or 6-18 damage wheel
• +5 to spells, healing and polymorph damage
• Polymorph into elemental as a free action (w/spells)
o DR against a chosen energy type
Paladin with Ava’s and the “free neck slot”:
• 6-14 damage wheel
• “20” kills Evil Outsider
• Grace 2/game
• +15 LoH
• +1 Guard 1/game
• Either +1 guard (AoG) or +3 Str/+4 Con

And we don't even know what the fighter/dwarf fighter necks will do yet.


This is not entirely accurate. What you are forgetting here is the loss of the current neck item for each class that equips the Legendary neck. So add to your data -3 Str, -4 Con for the Barbarian (losing Valhalla), same for Monk, maybe losing Stu's for the Ranger, etc. If you do that then you will have an accurate comparison across builds once all items are equipped.


Ok, let me put it another way - other classes are sacrificing a Rare/UR neck slot item in exchange for a legendary, so they'd have 2 legendaries (neck + weapon), whereas paladins are working with a legendary weapon and a neck slot that (as of right now) will never have a legendary upgrade for them.


I'll agree with that. But the other classes Legendary weapons don't do anything so they have: a +5 Item and then some powers (via Neck). These new powers are toned down a bit by loss of whatever they originally had in Neck. Vs. Pally that has +5 Item (so same as the others here), and then some powers (via Sword vs. Neck). But then they also have some more powers (via Neck). Plus there's an additional upside here for the Pally (and Bard) if a new Relic, Arcanum set piece, maybe a new Legendary TE with the Amulet of Treasure Finding, or whatever gets printed down the road and it's a Neck item. They won't have to make the hard choice the other classes will. But I know that's a big what if.


Personally I doubt the new treasure enhancer will be a neck slot that would not make any since with the push forward being class specific items...I personally feel that the HA wasn't over powered in the second revision I think that grace should be an aura given off by the sword either twice per game or once per room that gives a one time bonus to the saves of the party...aruas have always been part of the paladin class why not give them one..hell if the strength of the bonus upsets you make it based off of the paladin's CHA modifier with a cap of +5 making the paladins have to choose to buff it
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 3 weeks ago #87

Milambus (Jake) wrote: Just to be clear, my proposal was unlimited Paladins can Guard an additional person, but ...


Being guarded by an unlimited number of Paladins sounds awesome! Where do I sign up? :)
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 3 weeks ago #88

Rob F wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Rob F wrote:

PalaDan wrote: Still not understanding how the AoG/Guard on HA combo is being considered so unbalancing. Neither does the “free neck slot” argument.

Fighters will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including Welfor’s.
Barbarians will be able to equip their legendary with any weapon they choose, including the deathcleaver.
Monks -> neck + Asher’s
Rangers -> neck + Io’s

They’re all getting bumps to their ability to attack. Extra guard bumps a paladin’s ability to defend.


Your correct that the classes you mentioned all will get to equip their Legendary weapon and their Legendary neck slot. The difference though is in the powers of the Legendary weapons beyond just the damage. Welfor's and Cleaver have none. Asher's two points of poison which most are immune to, and Io's extra crit range but a big stat to get there. With the HA you could make a case that just the powers of the sword alone could be combined into a powerful Token. And these powers are now being put on a weapon which takes up no slot. What Token could be made from the powers of the other Legendary weapons? +2 poison damage, so maybe a Rare at best. And 18-20 crit but must have 20 Dex. That's how I see there being a difference in the weapons. The HA as is will become the most powerful weapon ever created.


You're absolutely right, but part of issue hidden there is that Welfor's (at least) is weaker than it should be (given the classes it is restricted to and the weapons available with fewer restrictions). We didn't reign in Asher's or Thor's enough when they were made. Welfor's really ought to be bumped up (via some TokenDB errata) or replaced with a newer Legendary. But we're unlikely to get a new Legendary weapon for Fighters and their kin for several years, since next year the Fighters get their necklace.

I think it is somewhat appropriate for the HA to be the current most powerful weapon, at least until there is one that Fighters can use.


I wouldn't want to see a Paladin weapon more powerful than ones Fighters and Barbarians can use, since fighting is pretty much all those classes do, while the Paladin has other abilities. Like you said, it will likely be years before the Fighters get another Legendary weapon. Since this sword has so many other abilities, it's actual damage should be below the other Legendary weapons that don't have all the bonus abilities.


Again, we're comparing the HA to other legendary weapons in a vacuum. Yes, the HA will compound with AoG, but so will the older legendary weapons with the legendary neck slots:
Ranger with Io’s:
• 10-20 damage wheel
• Criticals on 18-20
• +4 Con
• +9 to damage with ranged attacks,
• 2 scrolls per game
• Animal friend
Barbarian with Averon’s:
• 8-21 damage wheel
• +10 to damage
• +1 Rage
• Fury 2/game
Monk with 1 Asher’s:
• 8-13 damage wheel (includes 2 poison damage)
• +6 FoB sacred damage
• Stun on 18-20
• FoB on ranged attacks
• T5 psy power
• +1 psy power
Bard with Wydseth’s – can equip Thor’s:
• 6-11 damage wheel
• Crit on 19-20
• Both melee and ranged w/returning
• +4 hit/damage for the entire party
• May perform any standard action while using bardsong
Druid with Drue’s:
• 6-13 or 6-18 damage wheel
• +5 to spells, healing and polymorph damage
• Polymorph into elemental as a free action (w/spells)
o DR against a chosen energy type
Paladin with Ava’s and the “free neck slot”:
• 6-14 damage wheel
• “20” kills Evil Outsider
• Grace 2/game
• +15 LoH
• +1 Guard 1/game
• Either +1 guard (AoG) or +3 Str/+4 Con

And we don't even know what the fighter/dwarf fighter necks will do yet.


This is not entirely accurate. What you are forgetting here is the loss of the current neck item for each class that equips the Legendary neck. So add to your data -3 Str, -4 Con for the Barbarian (losing Valhalla), same for Monk, maybe losing Stu's for the Ranger, etc. If you do that then you will have an accurate comparison across builds once all items are equipped.


Ok, let me put it another way - other classes are sacrificing a Rare/UR neck slot item in exchange for a legendary, so they'd have 2 legendaries (neck + weapon), whereas paladins are working with a legendary weapon and a neck slot that (as of right now) will never have a legendary upgrade for them.


I'll agree with that. But the other classes Legendary weapons don't do anything so they have: a +5 Item and then some powers (via Neck). These new powers are toned down a bit by loss of whatever they originally had in Neck. Vs. Pally that has +5 Item (so same as the others here), and then some powers (via Sword vs. Neck). But then they also have some more powers (via Neck). Plus there's an additional upside here for the Pally (and Bard) if a new Relic, Arcanum set piece, maybe a new Legendary TE with the Amulet of Treasure Finding, or whatever gets printed down the road and it's a Neck item. They won't have to make the hard choice the other classes will. But I know that's a big what if.


This is also somewhat inaccurate, because in the current state all classes have "neck bonus". I understand that with the legendaries the other classes lose "neck bonus", but that doesn't mean the paladin is gaining double "neck bonus".

Also, where the heck did my original post go?
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 3 weeks ago #89

As we enter what may be the final phase of token design on these transmutes I hope we continue to have thoughtful and empathetic conversation. I know since most of us have a great affinity for a class or two I can see where our motivations can drive us to be passionate.

It is my hope that as we give careful consideration to token design, that we balance game mechanics with ideas and concepts that will inspire. These class legendaries should make the players that play them say wow. They should excite and ignite a legendary journey to transmute the item.
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 3 weeks ago #90

Matthew Hayward wrote: Does Barbarian +1 rage grant a “greater rage” of you are level 5, or only the level 4 “rage” effect?


Good question. The +1 is for whatever Rage or Greater Rage you have access to using.
Token Conjurer
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Nerdomancer
Author of the never-to-be-released "The Secret of Trees"
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 3 weeks ago #91

Philip Goodman wrote: If ranged FoB gets nerfed on the legendary, I would rather see it get removed entirely and something like an additional +3 psychic power uses putting the legendary at 5 or more uses of psychic powers.

Nerfing ranged FoB this late in the revision cycle would be a very drastic last minute change and is not something I want to see at this point in the token development cycle.

While I would be okay with something like +6 dmg, psychic power T-5 + 4 psychic uses, I am just one person and I would not be surprised if other monks hated it.


I think that if they did remove ranged FOB they should include the returning shurikens ability that is on the ring. If the design space allowed for other abilities to be increased that would make sense, but I am not sure that it is required from a balance perspective.
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 3 weeks ago #92

OrionW wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: If ranged FoB gets nerfed on the legendary, I would rather see it get removed entirely and something like an additional +3 psychic power uses putting the legendary at 5 or more uses of psychic powers.

Nerfing ranged FoB this late in the revision cycle would be a very drastic last minute change and is not something I want to see at this point in the token development cycle.

While I would be okay with something like +6 dmg, psychic power T-5 + 4 psychic uses, I am just one person and I would not be surprised if other monks hated it.


I think that if they did remove ranged FOB they should include the returning shurikens ability that is on the ring. If the design space allowed for other abilities to be increased that would make sense, but I am not sure that it is required from a balance perspective.


It would be nice, but the returning shuriken effect is not a significant effect and is just an add-on to the UR ring for me. It just means that instead of carrying 6 shurikens in my pocket (which I have done since 2013), I can carry two instead.

I do agree there is a lot of stuff on the UR ring that is missing from the monk relic.

*Edit:
Wait... are you saying that the legendary can lose FoB at ranged and gain nothing and still be fine?
I strongly disagree with that.
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.
Last edit: by Philip Goodman.
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 3 weeks ago #93

OrionW wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: If ranged FoB gets nerfed on the legendary, I would rather see it get removed entirely and something like an additional +3 psychic power uses putting the legendary at 5 or more uses of psychic powers.

Nerfing ranged FoB this late in the revision cycle would be a very drastic last minute change and is not something I want to see at this point in the token development cycle.

While I would be okay with something like +6 dmg, psychic power T-5 + 4 psychic uses, I am just one person and I would not be surprised if other monks hated it.


I think that if they did remove ranged FOB they should include the returning shurikens ability that is on the ring. If the design space allowed for other abilities to be increased that would make sense, but I am not sure that it is required from a balance perspective.


Imo, this doesn't make sense, as you can just equip both the legendary neck and the new ring. So.... Keep the ranged FOB. Very similar to my argument against the current worded lenses of non-vital insight (my joke). If you remove this, you're saying "new monks, ha, you can't have the good stuff the vets get. Instead, go find some old throwing stars". And the few people who do have flying fists read the new legendary as "+damage. +dark disciple shirt".

Anyway, I don't expect the ranged FOB to be removed. But I am an optimist.
Last edit: by Matt Goodman.
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Transmuted 2020 Token Images - Final-ish 2 months 3 weeks ago #94

Wade Schwendemann wrote: The real problem is that we are designing the HA for 2 different groups
1. New Paladin players who can get "2 legendaries for one" by making the HA and get the class specific powers as well as a legendary weapon to attack with, so we have to make it weak enough that it isnt unbalanced.
2. Existing relic/legendary Paladins, who want a legendary that is at least close to as good as the ones of other classes in the current year, and one that replaces Welfor's or Thor's.

I don't know how we reconcile this. I am definitely in favor of giving more defensive powers to the Paladin legendary. If guard can't be expanded, maybe add another use of Grace?


Another way to look at it is the difference between desirable and defining. So much of the interest, seemingly more than last year, is in a single token that will be the best token the class could ever have.

Musing, consider the question: What is the current most important token for a [insert class]? Important is probably a bad word, I could be more consistent and say "defining" instead. What one token will define a [insert class] more than any other? Or, what one token would you most want to have as a [insert class]?

[insert new Legendary] being the most defining or most desirable or whatever seems reasonable. But, the one token to rule them all approach strikes me as shortsighted. If I'm playing wizard, I'd probably say Charm of Spell Swapping is the most desired, then Ring of Spell Storing, then Focus Ring, then Staff, then MEC. I have to think about it, though. There isn't some massive dropoff between tokens.

Related, as it gets to some of why I really dislike the URs not being class specific (besides just how that is out of line with just last year), is that I find a token more desirable because it's class restricted. Cloak of the Elm is a cooler token to me if it's Ranger only or Ranger/Druid. It's not as useful, obviously. But, the references to the maximum damage model point out the extent that tokens are feeding a damage output beast where class differences are largely ignored.

Anyway, getting back to how it seems like the transmutes are trying to do a host of things to be the best thing in the next decade, even putting aside balance, I'd rather that class oriented/specific tokens at UR level come out more often, so you get your extra Sacrifice and your extra Lay on Hands and your extra not-paladin ability from more than one token because then you have more toys and don't have one path to pursue.

Couple side notes.

The dropoff from legendary to relic should not be so massive that someone feels inferior for only having the relic. Seems to me that paladin, ranger, and monk transmutes all suffer from this.

The blue Lenses should be +1/+1 because why even bother if they don't at least do that? I kind of liked the short bow theme that was more prevalent earlier on, Lenses bonus could be even higher with short bows (actually, there's space on the token, +1/+1 and additional with short bows should fit).

I do think Ring of Stamina giving +6 Fort Saves is a cooler token than +2 CON, though the latter is way better for players who need more HP, which is why I didn't have a problem with the change. Not every token is for every player, in fact, URs and up are for few players, with legendaries for a tiny number of players.
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