TOPIC: Ultra Rare 2020 Token Images - Final-ish

Milambus (Jake) wrote: Ring of the Drake: Now has nothing that is unique for monks.

Monks are still the only class that can use 2 shurikens in combat.

Ring of the Drake
This would be one of the nicest URs ever. There is something here for everyone (even Clerics!). I hope the Shuriken thing stays but part of me feels like that was an oversight.

Lenses of the Archer
Is it too late to design a rare Short Bow? My guess is an UR Short Bow is planned for next year. If a newbie opens one, it'd be nice for him or her to have a rare Short Bow to chase down.

Taborlin's Key
Most slotless tokens don't say (Slotless) on them. I could be wrong, but it seems like printing "Slotless" on the token is the exception, and not the rule.

Semi-Lich Skull
Same as above - do we really need to spell out "Slotless"? Is there a reason the token uses the word carried instead of "equipped"? TokenDB shows Teeth as equippable.

Cook's Hat
I guess this is another one where it feels weird to list the slot when it's in the name. Even weirder templating because it has an ampersand in there.

Arcane Earcuff
This is nitpicking, but neither this earcuff nor Earcuff of Orbits look like they have room to hold other items. Charm Bracelets and Necklace definitely look like there are spots where you'd slot the Charms in.

Arcane Belt
Should the parentheses just read - "+2 to healing spells" OR "+2 to your healing spells"? I don't know if we've had verbiage like (& +2 to healing Spells you cast) before.

Arcane Belt // Ioun Stone Banshee Prism // Ring of the Drake verbiage
Arcane Belt - Spell Dmg
Ioun Stone Banshee Prism - & damage Spells
Ring of the Drake - & Spells
The wording on these three should be consistent.

+3 Rod of the Meek
Does on the party card need to be printed on the token?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote: Ring of the Drake: Now has nothing that is unique for monks.

Monks are still the only class that can use 2 shurikens in combat.

Sure, just an interesting journey this token has taken... how so much has been pushed onto this token.

Flik wrote: Pretty bummed on the change to the lenses. There are only 11 bows ever printed that the rogue can even use, and the uncommon one coming out in this set and last years common bow are the only ones printed since 2014.

I cannot see anyone actually picking this up. A UR that you’ll have to use an uncommon weapon for just to sneak at range. I can’t see that replacing a UR crossbow that I just picked up last year.

Heya Flik - I was the one who suggested a drawback (only useable with Bows) to offset the complaints folks were making that this token is straight-up power creep, and doesn't force any choices.

I think that - while it's not necessarily anyone's Dream Token - it's a pretty decent way to get the Ranged Sneak ability reprinted, after so many folks were asking for a reprint or near-reprint. I do know a lot of Rogues who use a bow... particularly the +1 Mighty ShortBow, which adds their Str to damage. IF it had presented in this form at the beginning of token development (rather than getting people's hopes up for a Power Creep token) I think folks would have been much more receptive, and happy for the chance to get Ranged Sneak back into their build.

Once thing which I didn't register until Boilerplate pointed it out, was that there's no Rare bow this year. I could have sworn I'd seen a Rare Shortbow early in development... but I guess it got dropped. Even so, the +2 Dex on these Lenses mean an extra +1 to hit... which would be the same as a +1 Rare shortbow being used with the old Lenses of Vital Insight. You'd be out 1 pt of damage on the wheel... but still gain the bonus +1AC and Rfx save from the +2 Dex. Not a bad trade-off!


So, yeah - I still think this is a fine UR, with an effect people have been asking for, and forces choices. It would be better with a Rare Shortbow in the set, but those are still very easy to acquire on the secondary market.

Or, if it's really too restrictive - as many folks suggest - change it to Shortbows *AND* Crossbows.
That still forces choices for the Hammer Rogues... and honestly, that's a good place to present a choice.

Either way - I'm really glad the name changed. Thanks, Jeff!

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote: Ring of the Drake: Now has nothing that is unique for monks.

Monks are still the only class that can use 2 shurikens in combat.

Sure, just an interesting journey this token has taken... how so much has been pushed onto this token.

With one of the effects doing nothing for monks, +2 spell damage.

And the +2 ranged damage and returning shurikens effect are not conferred to the relic.

Raven wrote:

Flik wrote: Pretty bummed on the change to the lenses. There are only 11 bows ever printed that the rogue can even use, and the uncommon one coming out in this set and last years common bow are the only ones printed since 2014.

I cannot see anyone actually picking this up. A UR that you’ll have to use an uncommon weapon for just to sneak at range. I can’t see that replacing a UR crossbow that I just picked up last year.

Heya Flik - I was the one who suggested a drawback (only useable with Bows) to offset the complaints folks were making that this token is straight-up power creep, and doesn't force any choices.

I think that - while it's not necessarily anyone's Dream Token - it's a pretty decent way to get the Ranged Sneak ability reprinted, after so many folks were asking for a reprint or near-reprint. I do know a lot of Rogues who use a bow... particularly the +1 Mighty ShortBow, which adds their Str to damage. IF it had presented in this form at the beginning of token development (rather than getting people's hopes up for a Power Creep token) I think folks would have been much more receptive, and happy for the chance to get Ranged Sneak back into their build.

Once thing which I didn't register until Boilerplate pointed it out, was that there's no Rare bow this year. I could have sworn I'd seen a Rare Shortbow early in development... but I guess it got dropped. Even so, the +2 Dex on these Lenses mean an extra +1 to hit... which would be the same as a +1 Rare shortbow being used with the old Lenses of Vital Insight. You'd be out 1 pt of damage on the wheel... but still gain the bonus +1AC and Rfx save from the +2 Dex. Not a bad trade-off!


So, yeah - I still think this is a fine UR, with an effect people have been asking for, and forces choices. It would be better with a Rare Shortbow in the set, but those are still very easy to acquire on the secondary market.

Or, if it's really too restrictive - as many folks suggest - change it to Shortbows *AND* Crossbows.
That still forces choices for the Hammer Rogues... and honestly, that's a good place to present a choice.

Either way - I'm really glad the name changed. Thanks, Jeff!

I agree with others that the change should be reverted or the restriction adjusted to include crossbows. Or reprint Lenses of Vital Insight. Maybe something like "2 handed ranged weapons" if the concern is thor's. Currently, it is far too restrictive on a weapon type that is lacking availability.

I'm sure the mention of the +1 mighty shortbow was just an example, but that is a 2010 UR. It's a bit of a stretch to expect rogues trying to get access to range sneak attack to have this decade-old token.

Also, keep in mind the most recent range UR weapon available to rogues is the +2 Stunning Lt. Crossbow

Raven wrote:

Flik wrote: Pretty bummed on the change to the lenses. There are only 11 bows ever printed that the rogue can even use, and the uncommon one coming out in this set and last years common bow are the only ones printed since 2014.

I cannot see anyone actually picking this up. A UR that you’ll have to use an uncommon weapon for just to sneak at range. I can’t see that replacing a UR crossbow that I just picked up last year.

Heya Flik - I was the one who suggested a drawback (only useable with Bows) to offset the complaints folks were making that this token is straight-up power creep, and doesn't force any choices.

I think that - while it's not necessarily anyone's Dream Token - it's a pretty decent way to get the Ranged Sneak ability reprinted, after so many folks were asking for a reprint or near-reprint. I do know a lot of Rogues who use a bow... particularly the +1 Mighty ShortBow, which adds their Str to damage. IF it had presented in this form at the beginning of token development (rather than getting people's hopes up for a Power Creep token) I think folks would have been much more receptive, and happy for the chance to get Ranged Sneak back into their build.

Once thing which I didn't register until Boilerplate pointed it out, was that there's no Rare bow this year. I could have sworn I'd seen a Rare Shortbow early in development... but I guess it got dropped. Even so, the +2 Dex on these Lenses mean an extra +1 to hit... which would be the same as a +1 Rare shortbow being used with the old Lenses of Vital Insight. You'd be out 1 pt of damage on the wheel... but still gain the bonus +1AC and Rfx save from the +2 Dex. Not a bad trade-off!


So, yeah - I still think this is a fine UR, with an effect people have been asking for, and forces choices. It would be better with a Rare Shortbow in the set, but those are still very easy to acquire on the secondary market.

Or, if it's really too restrictive - as many folks suggest - change it to Shortbows *AND* Crossbows.
That still forces choices for the Hammer Rogues... and honestly, that's a good place to present a choice.

Either way - I'm really glad the name changed. Thanks, Jeff!

Raven it’s definitely cool that you provided a solution to the perceived problem.

Honestly even if there was a rare short bow in the set I don’t think that would change anyone’s thoughts.

It’s just not desirable to sneak from ranged $100 with that big of a restriction. There are two many good URs for rogues to pick up at PYPs, especially new Rogues, that this UR would be an extreme low priority picking up.

Consider in-print PYPs a new rogue would want first: Stunning Crossbow, Cloak of Shadowskin, IS Gold Nugget, IS Fire/Banshee Prism, Ring of Heroism/Cook’s Hat, Shoes of the Sneak, Ring of the Yeti/Drake, Flaming Blade, the Arcane Set, Charm of Brooching/Glory. After half of those are picked up now they might look at the lenses.

All these arguably make a much bigger “splash” impact then new players with their bliss shortbow.

Now with the last minute change all the vets don’t want the item. Even third year token collectors like me are disinterested.

I think it was a good idea to restrict the lenses from sneaking with Thor’s at range. Just make it “all bows” on the restriction. Then crossbows would work and I think most people would still pick it up. Or just reprint Vital Insight. Or keep it to previous 5 iterations as +2 dex no restriction.

Flik wrote: Pretty bummed on the change to the lenses. There are only 11 bows ever printed that the rogue can even use, and the uncommon one coming out in this set and last years common bow are the only ones printed since 2014.

I cannot see anyone actually picking this up. A UR that you’ll have to use an uncommon weapon for just to sneak at range. I can’t see that replacing a UR crossbow that I just picked up last year.

I assume most rogues will use Heimdall Sight (or whatever lenses they already had) over this UR. So many better URs to get for your build then +2dex at eye slot.

Perhaps change it to Any Bow or Crossbow?

A rare short bow might be tolerable in a world where enchanter's whetstone is still available. An uncommon one only does sting a bit.
There was definitely a +1 Short Bow in at least one iteration of the rares.

Since Thor's can be wielded by those with the older token, I dont necessarily want to limit this one and keep it away from newer rogues.

If we are wanting to do exactly that, though, it is a tough needle to thread. Why should we exclude slings? I get it from a design perspective (2 handed ranged weapons is clean).

Whatever is done, I hope some adjustments are made. Or print a Short Bow at rare, UR, or both in this year's set please. Maybe a rare Mighty Shortbow?

I would also be good with a straight reprint of Lenses of Vital insight, so we dont have to do a trade in.

Arcane set bonus is now pretty awesome. Now I'm even more disappointed that it conflicts with Cabal. Have to actually do some build comparisons, but I'm thinking I'll still likely stay with Cabal.

Really like the change to Cook's Hat, I think it will stay in builds longer now which fits well with it being a named token.

Not a fan of the Lenses change. I was fine with the last version.

Boilerplate wrote:

Flik wrote: Pretty bummed on the change to the lenses. There are only 11 bows ever printed that the rogue can even use, and the uncommon one coming out in this set and last years common bow are the only ones printed since 2014.

I cannot see anyone actually picking this up. A UR that you’ll have to use an uncommon weapon for just to sneak at range. I can’t see that replacing a UR crossbow that I just picked up last year.

I assume most rogues will use Heimdall Sight (or whatever lenses they already had) over this UR. So many better URs to get for your build then +2dex at eye slot.

Fair points. I’m thrilled that the obsolescence problem was fixed and a trade won’t be necessary (although would have preferred a straight reprint or use of a different slot without the bow restriction). But the lack of availability of current UR short bows essentially nullifies this token for new players. I might feel better about it if this year’s set included solid rare and ultra rare short bows.

EDIT: this whole situation, by the way, is why I argued in the first design thread for a trade in opportunity (or transmute style upgrade opportunity) for LoVI instead of arguing to nerf the token. We went from a win win for new buyers and existing LoVI owners to something that feels like an irrelevant bummer of a token. Dex rogues sneaking from range is good for the game. Don’t limit this to a subset of rogue players.

I guess I'm in the minority - our Rogue uses a +2 Flaming Shortbow, so I'll be getting this for her, and she'll love it!

Philip Goodman wrote:

Raven wrote:

Flik wrote: Pretty bummed on the change to the lenses. There are only 11 bows ever printed that the rogue can even use, and the uncommon one coming out in this set and last years common bow are the only ones printed since 2014.

I cannot see anyone actually picking this up. A UR that you’ll have to use an uncommon weapon for just to sneak at range. I can’t see that replacing a UR crossbow that I just picked up last year.

Heya Flik - I was the one who suggested a drawback (only useable with Bows) to offset the complaints folks were making that this token is straight-up power creep, and doesn't force any choices.

I think that - while it's not necessarily anyone's Dream Token - it's a pretty decent way to get the Ranged Sneak ability reprinted, after so many folks were asking for a reprint or near-reprint. I do know a lot of Rogues who use a bow... particularly the +1 Mighty ShortBow, which adds their Str to damage. IF it had presented in this form at the beginning of token development (rather than getting people's hopes up for a Power Creep token) I think folks would have been much more receptive, and happy for the chance to get Ranged Sneak back into their build.

Once thing which I didn't register until Boilerplate pointed it out, was that there's no Rare bow this year. I could have sworn I'd seen a Rare Shortbow early in development... but I guess it got dropped. Even so, the +2 Dex on these Lenses mean an extra +1 to hit... which would be the same as a +1 Rare shortbow being used with the old Lenses of Vital Insight. You'd be out 1 pt of damage on the wheel... but still gain the bonus +1AC and Rfx save from the +2 Dex. Not a bad trade-off!


So, yeah - I still think this is a fine UR, with an effect people have been asking for, and forces choices. It would be better with a Rare Shortbow in the set, but those are still very easy to acquire on the secondary market.

Or, if it's really too restrictive - as many folks suggest - change it to Shortbows *AND* Crossbows.
That still forces choices for the Hammer Rogues... and honestly, that's a good place to present a choice.

Either way - I'm really glad the name changed. Thanks, Jeff!

I agree with others that the change should be reverted or the restriction adjusted to include crossbows. Or reprint Lenses of Vital Insight. Maybe something like "2 handed ranged weapons" if the concern is thor's. Currently, it is far too restrictive on a weapon type that is lacking availability.

I'm sure the mention of the +1 mighty shortbow was just an example, but that is a 2010 UR. It's a bit of a stretch to expect rogues trying to get access to range sneak attack to have this decade-old token.

Also, keep in mind the most recent range UR weapon available to rogues is the +2 Stunning Lt. Crossbow

Pants of the Panther is a bit underwhelming - let's replace it with a +1 Mighty Shortbow reprint, and suddenly this is an awesome token. I'd also be OK with a +2 Flaming Shortbow reprint.