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TOPIC: Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish

Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #25

As far as the Arcane set bonus being used for healing, I think the most likely candidate is actually the Bard. Group heal after a puzzle mistake in room 1 hits the whole party.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #26

Arcane set bonus is looking good, I like it. I think my baby bard will too.

The change to Grace is awesome. Now it’ll always have a chance to help the party (“rolled a 3, a +3 from Grace likely won’t help” vs “we rolled a 3? Grace!! Reroll!”)
:cough:pleasekeepfullguardonHA:cough:
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #27

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Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think the arcane set power is amazing, probably too good honestly.
A set bonus is the equivalent of arguably the best head slot UR for spellcasters.

Is that too much?

Also, since it has to be the first spell one casts, I hope first monsters get a lot tougher, particularly on NM/Epic.


True its powerful but as you point out it's only on the 1st spell so probably not at the most clutch moment. Honestly it will probably just make the first encounter a little more fun for casters who normally hold back their big spells.


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Yes, one could use wands/scrolls/Staff of Power to save any spells for the final fight...


I was joking - if one goes through all that one might achieve many things - being "too powerful" would not be among them.


This was exactly my point. Almost everyone saves their big spell for the end already. Most groups are not that bad off during the first few rooms. So using a big spell early goes from being a bad idea to just kinda fun but probably still not needed. Sure you could save 2 big spells for the end, but then your basically not spell casting until the end and that's not a hoop I can see most bothering to jump through. Honestly though the set power could go away entirely, basically no one is going to be wearing these items for the set.

The belt is already basically BIS for casters and the other 2 are slot expanders. Really the more I think about it the more I think it shouldn't be a set. Its powerful enough already and making it a set is just going to restrict the reprintabilty of parts in the future.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #28

The arcane set bonus makes me a little sad. Because that is a really good set bonus that i want, but will not have. I decided a few years back to avoid the trap of slot expanders. I made an exception for the charm of brooching for a couple years, until they were able to fund multiple other URs. Im not suggesting the set change, only lamenting. At least it isnt a unique ability, just a powerful pre-cast.

The lucky set bonus seems spot on. The set items themselves are very strong, so the set only needs to be enough to entice someone who wants one lucky item to go ahead and splurge on the second.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #29

kurtreznor wrote: The arcane set bonus makes me a little sad. Because that is a really good set bonus that i want, but will not have. I decided a few years back to avoid the trap of slot expanders. I made an exception for the charm of brooching for a couple years, until they were able to fund multiple other URs. Im not suggesting the set change, only lamenting. At least it isnt a unique ability, just a powerful pre-cast.

The lucky set bonus seems spot on. The set items themselves are very strong, so the set only needs to be enough to entice someone who wants one lucky item to go ahead and splurge on the second.


I also have yet to outfit our group with any slot expanders. I might have to change my mind with the Arcane set, just to get the set bonus.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #30

Fiddy wrote: As far as the Arcane set bonus being used for healing, I think the most likely candidate is actually the Bard. Group heal after a puzzle mistake in room 1 hits the whole party.


Yes this will be common I think, an extra sooth wounds. Which is great really.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #31

Fiddy wrote: As far as the Arcane set bonus being used for healing, I think the most likely candidate is actually the Bard. Group heal after a puzzle mistake in room 1 hits the whole party.

Hey, totally correct. With a full set of keys, the right party can drop 300 extra healing over a dungeon now :dry:

Edit, that said, I like this as the full set bonus for the arcane set.

Can we do something about the lucky set just being a duplicate of half the redoubt set?

Crazy proposal
If we really, really, must have +5 HP as the Lucky set bonus, can we change the redoubt set bonus to +2 con?

Edit:
Also worth noting. By making the lucky set set bonus at 2 items, it makes the lucky set the most powerful armor set. By only using armor and shield slots, it allows any helm.

Notable mix and match head items with lucky armor and shield:
UR Combos:
Redoubt / blessed redoubt (IMO better set than redoubt UR set)
Crown of Might (+1 hit and damage, allows might set to be fit easily)
Charming Crown (+will saves, imbue psychic)
Crown of Expertise (extra spell for cleric or druid)
Cook's Hat (+1 level, minimal penalty)

Rare Combos:
Defenders Helm (+1 ac, +1 all saves)
Bliss Bull / Nether Stout (round out str or con)
Helm of the Boar (+2 damage and the lucky set removes half of the penalty)
Crown of Iron Will (+4 Will save to bring the set to +6 will)

Given the flexibility of the 2 piece set, I recommend a weaker set bonus for 2 piece (3hp?). Next year add additional pieces (helm and boots?) and add a 3 piece and possibly 4 piece set bonus.
Last edit: by Endgame.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #32

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think the arcane set power is amazing, probably too good honestly.
A set bonus is the equivalent of arguably the best head slot UR for spellcasters.

Is that too much?

Also, since it has to be the first spell one casts, I hope first monsters get a lot tougher, particularly on NM/Epic.


True its powerful but as you point out it's only on the 1st spell so probably not at the most clutch moment. Honestly it will probably just make the first encounter a little more fun for casters who normally hold back their big spells.


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Yes, one could use wands/scrolls/Staff of Power to save any spells for the final fight...


I was joking - if one goes through all that one might achieve many things - being "too powerful" would not be among them.


This was exactly my point. Almost everyone saves their big spell for the end already. Most groups are not that bad off during the first few rooms. So using a big spell early goes from being a bad idea to just kinda fun but probably still not needed. Sure you could save 2 big spells for the end, but then your basically not spell casting until the end and that's not a hoop I can see most bothering to jump through. Honestly though the set power could go away entirely, basically no one is going to be wearing these items for the set.

The belt is already basically BIS for casters and the other 2 are slot expanders. Really the more I think about it the more I think it shouldn't be a set. Its powerful enough already and making it a set is just going to restrict the reprintabilty of parts in the future.


I think you raise a good point. Looking at the Tokens this set is tied to makes me feel the same way. People are going to use the Tokens anyway, regardless of the set bonus. And since there is already a UR set bonus this year with the Lucky set bonus maybe this set bonus should get pushed out to the year when the Wizards get their Legendary. I think this is the first year where there are two set bonuses at the UR level.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Albert Einstein
Last edit: by Rob F.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #33

Endgame wrote:

Fiddy wrote: As far as the Arcane set bonus being used for healing, I think the most likely candidate is actually the Bard. Group heal after a puzzle mistake in room 1 hits the whole party.

Hey, totally correct. With a full set of keys, the right party can drop 300 extra healing over a dungeon now :dry:

Edit, that said, I like this as the full set bonus for the arcane set.

Can we do something about the lucky set just being a duplicate of half the redoubt set?

Crazy proposal
If we really, really, must have +5 HP as the Lucky set bonus, can we change the redoubt set bonus to +2 con?

Edit:
Also worth noting. By making the lucky set set bonus at 2 items, it makes the lucky set the most powerful armor set. By only using armor and shield slots, it allows any helm.

Notable mix and match head items with lucky armor and shield:
UR Combos:
Redoubt / blessed redoubt (IMO better set than redoubt UR set)
Crown of Might (+1 hit and damage, allows might set to be fit easily)
Charming Crown (+will saves, imbue psychic)
Crown of Expertise (extra spell for cleric or druid)
Cook's Hat (+1 level, minimal penalty)

Rare Combos:
Defenders Helm (+1 ac, +1 all saves)
Bliss Bull / Nether Stout (round out str or con)
Helm of the Boar (+2 damage and the lucky set removes half of the penalty)
Crown of Iron Will (+4 Will save to bring the set to +6 will)

Given the flexibility of the 2 piece set, I recommend a weaker set bonus for 2 piece (3hp?). Next year add additional pieces (helm and boots?) and add a 3 piece and possibly 4 piece set bonus.


I'm not seeing how you can get to 300 healing with the Keys and this set bonus?
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Albert Einstein
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #34

Rob F wrote:

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think the arcane set power is amazing, probably too good honestly.
A set bonus is the equivalent of arguably the best head slot UR for spellcasters.

Is that too much?

Also, since it has to be the first spell one casts, I hope first monsters get a lot tougher, particularly on NM/Epic.


True its powerful but as you point out it's only on the 1st spell so probably not at the most clutch moment. Honestly it will probably just make the first encounter a little more fun for casters who normally hold back their big spells.


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Yes, one could use wands/scrolls/Staff of Power to save any spells for the final fight...


I was joking - if one goes through all that one might achieve many things - being "too powerful" would not be among them.


This was exactly my point. Almost everyone saves their big spell for the end already. Most groups are not that bad off during the first few rooms. So using a big spell early goes from being a bad idea to just kinda fun but probably still not needed. Sure you could save 2 big spells for the end, but then your basically not spell casting until the end and that's not a hoop I can see most bothering to jump through. Honestly though the set power could go away entirely, basically no one is going to be wearing these items for the set.

The belt is already basically BIS for casters and the other 2 are slot expanders. Really the more I think about it the more I think it shouldn't be a set. Its powerful enough already and making it a set is just going to restrict the reprintabilty of parts in the future.


I think you raise a good point. Looking at the Tokens this set is tied to makes me feel the same way. People are going to use the Tokens anyway, regardless of the set bonus. And since there is already a UR set bonus this year with the Lucky set bonus maybe this set bonus should get pushed out to the year when the Wizards get their Legendary. I think this is the first year where there are two set bonuses at the UR level.


I think if you moved the Arcane set to the same year as the Wizards and Clerics get their transmutes you're going to have people upset that there's way too much love going to those classes in a single year.
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #35

I do want to point out that in 2019 the Wizards got a spell damage bump of +2 (Gregor's Tome).

This year we are looking at +6 (Arcane Belt, Ioun Stone Banhee Prisim, and Ring of the Drake). Now they may not wear the Ring at the high end having better Focus items but they will if they don't have the Focus.

Adding in the Arcane Set bonus they are getting some great (probably too great) power this year especially since their Legendary is next year. Just keep this in mind during the development cycle next year.

We might need to restrict 3rd level spells from the Arcane Set (Level 0-2).

Ed
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Notes about the 2020 Token Collection - Final-ish 3 months 3 weeks ago #36

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Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I'm glad the Monk's psychic ability doesn't totally duplicate the Eldritch token anymore, thanks!


Will the combined teeth also imbue psychic in addition to unlocking all the tiers?
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