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TOPIC: 2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update)

2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #25

Braxton wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

PalaDan wrote: I gotta say, I like Grace. I'd bump the bonus a tad higher to make it a truly legendary ability, but it's pretty decent at +3.


The thing I would like to see is it bonus up any type of save not just reflex. Grace would have much more utility if it were any type of save.

I think it does apply to any saving throw, it's just the example in the notes uses a Reflex save.


I just reread it, I think your right.

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2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #26

Druegar wrote:
Grace: Either once (relic) or twice (legendary) per game, a paladin may add +3 to a single group or individual's saving throw. E.g., if the party is hit with a dragon breath attack, before the group Reflex save is rolled, Grace would add +3 to the result. Whether Grace is used to affect a multi-person saving throw roll or an individual's saving throw is up to the paladin. The use of Grace must be declared before the die is rolled.


Can we change this to individual instead of group? This seems WAAAAY overboard. Changing to individuals will force the paladin to make tactical decisions on who to save and for what. Otherwise, it's just a blanket +3 to saves for EVERYONE. It reads to me, "everyone in the party gain +3 to all saves, slotless". Because, honestly, there are usually only a few saves per dungeon anyway. If it got toned down to individuals, then I would be ok with this. As written, I'm 100% against it.

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2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #27

I disagree. I think there are plenty of rooms where a save has to be made every round. N2 and N3 had plenty.

I actually think it might not be enough.
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2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #28

Matt Goodman wrote:

Druegar wrote:
Grace: Either once (relic) or twice (legendary) per game, a paladin may add +3 to a single group or individual's saving throw. E.g., if the party is hit with a dragon breath attack, before the group Reflex save is rolled, Grace would add +3 to the result. Whether Grace is used to affect a multi-person saving throw roll or an individual's saving throw is up to the paladin. The use of Grace must be declared before the die is rolled.


Can we change this to individual instead of group? This seems WAAAAY overboard. Changing to individuals will force the paladin to make tactical decisions on who to save and for what. Otherwise, it's just a blanket +3 to saves for EVERYONE. It reads to me, "everyone in the party gain +3 to all saves, slotless". Because, honestly, there are usually only a few saves per dungeon anyway. If it got toned down to individuals, then I would be ok with this. As written, I'm 100% against it.


I am of the complete opposite opinion. That is because currently this is the same ability from a rare from 5 years ago. I honestly think this isn't very powerful or special at all, as it is something anyone can do with fop:scarab . I'd rather the paladin get something different, or go back to the saves.

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2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #29

Matt Goodman wrote:

Druegar wrote:
Grace: Either once (relic) or twice (legendary) per game, a paladin may add +3 to a single group or individual's saving throw. E.g., if the party is hit with a dragon breath attack, before the group Reflex save is rolled, Grace would add +3 to the result. Whether Grace is used to affect a multi-person saving throw roll or an individual's saving throw is up to the paladin. The use of Grace must be declared before the die is rolled.


Can we change this to individual instead of group? This seems WAAAAY overboard. Changing to individuals will force the paladin to make tactical decisions on who to save and for what. Otherwise, it's just a blanket +3 to saves for EVERYONE. It reads to me, "everyone in the party gain +3 to all saves, slotless". Because, honestly, there are usually only a few saves per dungeon anyway. If it got toned down to individuals, then I would be ok with this. As written, I'm 100% against it.


I think you're significantly overestimating this power. For most parties I've seen, this bonus will actually make the difference for maybe 4 of the party members on a given roll and likely not even that many. Why? There is usually more than a 3 point spread between highest save in the party and lowest save in the party (for a given type of save). So if the bonus helps the top-end make their save, the low end still isn't making it. And if it helps the low end make a save, the high end didn't need it. Toss onto that you have to announce it before the roll, meaning you may use it when noone needed it, or you may use it when the party rolls so low noone makes the save even with the bonus.

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2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #30

I like Grace, it's a much better bonus than +3 to all Paladin Saves, it's more balanced and fits the Paladin's "help others" MOA.

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2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #31

Mike Steele wrote: I like Grace, it's a much better bonus than +3 to all Paladin Saves, it's more balanced and fits the Paladin's "help others" MOA.

I like the simplicity of it over guarded players save it paladin saves. Would love it more if the paladin could choose it use it after the roll though.

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2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #32

Matt Goodman wrote:

Druegar wrote:
Grace: Either once (relic) or twice (legendary) per game, a paladin may add +3 to a single group or individual's saving throw. E.g., if the party is hit with a dragon breath attack, before the group Reflex save is rolled, Grace would add +3 to the result. Whether Grace is used to affect a multi-person saving throw roll or an individual's saving throw is up to the paladin. The use of Grace must be declared before the die is rolled.


Can we change this to individual instead of group? This seems WAAAAY overboard. Changing to individuals will force the paladin to make tactical decisions on who to save and for what. Otherwise, it's just a blanket +3 to saves for EVERYONE. It reads to me, "everyone in the party gain +3 to all saves, slotless". Because, honestly, there are usually only a few saves per dungeon anyway. If it got toned down to individuals, then I would be ok with this. As written, I'm 100% against it.


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2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #33

Druegar wrote: Slot Expanders Cap
We've put a hard cap on the number of Charms (10) and Ioun Stones (9) one can equip. We feel it's important to rein-in future slot-expansion. At this time, only the Charm and Ioun Stone slots are being capped, but it's possible that at some point in the future we may need to cap other slots.


A cap sounds reasonable but I'm not sure why it needs to be added to the tokens now?

The max for Charms is:
3 base
3 Charm Necklace
2 Charm Bracelets
2 Arcane Earcuff
Total 10

Max for Iouns:
5 base
2 Earcuff of Orbits
2 Arcane Bracelets
Total 9

So I guess my point is, IF (big IF) more Charm/Ioun expanders are printed years from now, just add the restriction then. Not sure why it needs to be added now when it's impossible to exceed that now anyway.
Classes Played: Barbarian (21 times), Monk (11), Cleric (9), Fighter (9), Rogue (9), Dwarf Fighter (7), Ranger (6), Paladin (5), Druid (5), Elf Wizard (2), Wizard (2).

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Last edit: by Jeff321.

2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #34

Fiddy wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote:

Druegar wrote:
Grace: Either once (relic) or twice (legendary) per game, a paladin may add +3 to a single group or individual's saving throw. E.g., if the party is hit with a dragon breath attack, before the group Reflex save is rolled, Grace would add +3 to the result. Whether Grace is used to affect a multi-person saving throw roll or an individual's saving throw is up to the paladin. The use of Grace must be declared before the die is rolled.


Can we change this to individual instead of group? This seems WAAAAY overboard. Changing to individuals will force the paladin to make tactical decisions on who to save and for what. Otherwise, it's just a blanket +3 to saves for EVERYONE. It reads to me, "everyone in the party gain +3 to all saves, slotless". Because, honestly, there are usually only a few saves per dungeon anyway. If it got toned down to individuals, then I would be ok with this. As written, I'm 100% against it.


I think you're significantly overestimating this power. For most parties I've seen, this bonus will actually make the difference for maybe 4 of the party members on a given roll and likely not even that many. Why? There is usually more than a 3 point spread between highest save in the party and lowest save in the party (for a given type of save). So if the bonus helps the top-end make their save, the low end still isn't making it. And if it helps the low end make a save, the high end didn't need it. Toss onto that you have to announce it before the roll, meaning you may use it when noone needed it, or you may use it when the party rolls so low noone makes the save even with the bonus.


I agree, +3 doesn't sound overpowered at all. It might help a couple more people save. If it does I think you'd be happy with that. But usually there is a wide range of numbers on the party card for saves. And if you roll at the extremes (1 or 20) it may not matter for anyone.
Classes Played: Barbarian (21 times), Monk (11), Cleric (9), Fighter (9), Rogue (9), Dwarf Fighter (7), Ranger (6), Paladin (5), Druid (5), Elf Wizard (2), Wizard (2).

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2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #35

Jeff321 wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote:

Druegar wrote:
Grace: Either once (relic) or twice (legendary) per game, a paladin may add +3 to a single group or individual's saving throw. E.g., if the party is hit with a dragon breath attack, before the group Reflex save is rolled, Grace would add +3 to the result. Whether Grace is used to affect a multi-person saving throw roll or an individual's saving throw is up to the paladin. The use of Grace must be declared before the die is rolled.


Can we change this to individual instead of group? This seems WAAAAY overboard. Changing to individuals will force the paladin to make tactical decisions on who to save and for what. Otherwise, it's just a blanket +3 to saves for EVERYONE. It reads to me, "everyone in the party gain +3 to all saves, slotless". Because, honestly, there are usually only a few saves per dungeon anyway. If it got toned down to individuals, then I would be ok with this. As written, I'm 100% against it.


I think you're significantly overestimating this power. For most parties I've seen, this bonus will actually make the difference for maybe 4 of the party members on a given roll and likely not even that many. Why? There is usually more than a 3 point spread between highest save in the party and lowest save in the party (for a given type of save). So if the bonus helps the top-end make their save, the low end still isn't making it. And if it helps the low end make a save, the high end didn't need it. Toss onto that you have to announce it before the roll, meaning you may use it when noone needed it, or you may use it when the party rolls so low noone makes the save even with the bonus.


I agree, +3 doesn't sound overpowered at all. It might help a couple more people save. If it does I think you'd be happy with that. But usually there is a wide range of numbers on the party card for saves. And if you roll at the extremes (1 or 20) it may not matter for anyone.


It sounds to me like it doesn't add to everyone's saving throw in the group, it just affects one individuals roll or one group roll (a single roll for a group).

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2020 Token Notes (July 16 Update) 1 month 6 days ago #36

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Druegar wrote: Slot Expanders Cap
We've put a hard cap on the number of Charms (10) and Ioun Stones (9) one can equip. We feel it's important to rein-in future slot-expansion. At this time, only the Charm and Ioun Stone slots are being capped, but it's possible that at some point in the future we may need to cap other slots.


I'm guessing it will be unpopular, but frankly I would simplify this to "Only one slot extender may be used per slot type".

We already have two (soon to be three, fingers crossed) Glory items that don't stack, and two Charm items (soon to be three, fingers crossed) that do. But we also have the Charming set items that stop at +6 anyway.

So why not just make it only one expander for each slot? It may hurt anyone who is currently using 8 charms (is anyone?), but beyond that, it simplifies things in both the design and the equip space.

To clarify, you could still use as multiple slot expanders. Use Charm Necklace, Charm of Brooching, Earcuff of Orbits, and Gloves of Glory. And the theoretical Crown of Listening that adds an Earcuff slot. But if you do you can't use the Charm of Glory, Arcane Bracelets, or Arcane Earcuff.

Or maybe make it only two per slot, to keep the status quo?
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