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TOPIC: Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws

Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 5 days ago #1

While I work through the yearly write up of dungeon feedback, this was a point that my party and I thought needed mentioned in its own thread. This year at Gencon the four of us ran three dungeons (two E3 on Thursday, morning and night, and an E1 Friday night) and each time we ran in to a different scenario in regards to the ending treasure draw when it came to double pulls (having more than one token stick to the magnet on one pull).

-The first run we had a few people pull double tokens and we were told that luck had smiled upon us and that we basically got an extra token in our draw. Straight forward enough.

-The second run we were allowed to keep the double pulled token, unless it came up on the last pull. At which point we were forced to shake both tokens off the magnet and draw again. At one point the volunteer actually removed the tokens from the magnet and dropped them back in the box when my husband managed to draw three double pulls in a row on his last pull. This didn't sit well with any of us for the fact that we ourselves couldn't actually see how many had been drawn up and the attitude about it was very terse.

-The final run we did was yet another completely different scenario. When a few of our party members drew up doubles we were allowed to keep both, unless it was drawn up on the last pull. At which case the volunteer showed us both tokens and we were allowed to choose which one we kept and which got sent back into the box. (My party and I felt this was much preferable over scenario number two, as it allowed us the final say and we got to see what we pulled).

We also ran two dungeons at Origins this year (E1 & E2) with a full party of ten of our friends. There were many cases of double tokens being pulled up, and nothing was said. Anything that came up extra was kept just as that, an extra. A little bit of luck at the end of an adventure.

Now, this is in no means a post to cry about not getting more treasure, but rather just feedback to ask for a solid, 100% communicated ruling to both volunteers and players for this kind of situation going forward. I know I've seen this topic discussed before but was unsure if anything has ever been officially announced.

For my party, the issue we discussed among ourselves afterwards wasn't any kind of annoyance at being told one thing or the other, but that there was absolutely no consistency in it. To us, we are just there to have a good time, and the treasure is a bonus. But we rather go in to the treasure draw knowing how it will go instead of getting whiplash from getting both ends of the spectrum in one day. It's just a jarring experience to be told you are lucky in one run and then be told you are unlucky in another run for the exact same thing.

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Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 5 days ago #2

The inconsistencies seem odd. I was always under the understanding the scenario in the second run is correct.

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Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 5 days ago #3

I agree it should be consistent.

I think the rule should be:

If you get X tokens with one pull, and you are entitled to X or more, then you just made X pulls.

If you get X tokens with one pull and you are entitled to fewer than X more, look at the ones you got and pick however many you are entitled to.

Before someone else points it out, allowing people to "filter" their last pick is ever so much a tiny harm to those who follow (assuming we all have the same token preferences, which is false), but just imagine pulling an Orange token and another one on your last pull and having the volunteer chuck both back in the box and tell you to draw again. To avoid this kind of huge downside experience picking is the only way.

I would also add that if the treasure monitor determines the player is intentionally trying to get 2 or more at once (for example, by pulling up with wand very slowly and deliberately), they have the option of chucking both back and making the person pull again.


The "luck has smiled upon you" approach needs to be stamped out - drawing two or more tokens is part luck and part skill - if you reward people for this you make it wrong to take 20 bags, and right to make excruciatingly slow draws in an effort to try to pull an extra token or three.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 5 days ago #4

I apologize for any inconsistencies in epilogue.

We had several volunteers this year that were new to the position or had split assignments for the con so they missed epilogue training to focus on NPC duty.

It's feedback like this that we look for to ensure all our players have a great event.

The offical policy for several years has been:

Pulls with muliple tokens attached should be made visible to the player so they can select one.

On a player's final draw they keep any extras.

Excess token(s) should get tossed back into the treasure generator before the next player starts.

In the future I'll walk through these scenarios with all our epilogue volunteers.

Hope you pulled something cool and thanks for reaching out to us.

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Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 5 days ago #5

I don’t pull from the box anymore but when I did I was always told you get to keep doubled if you drew them.

Is there an official ruling on this? Maybe it needs to be in the phb (cannot access it at work).

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Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 5 days ago #6

One draw = One token
Here are some scenarios to illustrate how to deal with the wand extracting more than one token on a single pull:
• On the player’s last draw, two tokens stick to the wand. Since the player is only entitled to one more
token, the attendant shows the player both tokens and lets the player decide which one to keep. Return the
unselected token back into the treasure generator.
• On the player’s penultimate (next to last) draw, three tokens are stuck to the wand. Since the player is
only entitled to two more tokens, the attendant shows the player all three tokens and lets the player decide
which two to keep. Return the unselected token back into the treasure generator.
• The player has turned in a single 3× TREASURE CHIP. On their very first pull, three tokens stick to the
wand. The player keeps all three tokens and is done drawing.
• The player has 8 draws remaining. Three tokens stick to the wand. The player keeps all three tokens and
now has 5 pulls remaining.

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Last edit: by ponyboy. Reason: Druegar has ninja like searching skills

Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 5 days ago #7

  • Ro-gan
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True Dungeon couldn't exist without Volunteers. Volunteers. I'll say that yet again... Volunteers.

Yes... in a perfect world everything would be consistent when it comes to games, jobs, life, etc.

Volunteers aren't in danger of losing their jobs or a solid paycheck by doing something they feel is them just being nice to someone while helping with True Dungeon.

More than once when I was a Combat DM for TD a few years ago I would use my DM Power to resurrect a dead character. Usually because the person was a child and was truly disheartened they died.

SO!... There are 2 issues here which will cause some people to cry about unfairness and inconsistencies in TD...

1) A child was on a Run...
-- Get over it... it happens and was probably a special circumstance which was obviously approved by TPTB.

2) I resurrected someone...
-- Again, get over it. I made a decision and stand by it. The child was elated and his parents and their friends/family on that Run were happy.
-- TD gets positive feedback: "That DM was so nice!! He made our child happy. He realized it's about the fun and not killing parties."
-- TD does NOT get negative feedback: "That DM was a jerk. My child was devastated. I don't care if it's the rules and he was just doing what the module said. I will tell everyone I know TD sucks!!"

I'm sure I'll get one nut job on this thread now ripping me a new one for not being consistent and that I should have resurrected everyone that died in my Room that particular year.

In regards to the original Poster in this thread just think of the good that happened instead of focusing on the negative. You got lucky and had a very generous VOLUNTEER on one or two of your Treasure Pulls. The other VOLUNTEERS were just doing their jobs when they denied you the extra Tokens you and yours were lucky enough to pull up from the Treasure Box.

Inconsistencies or not you got lucky at least once.

And...! I know your response to me will be that you aren't complaining you juts want consistency and you're not griping. Yet... you are because you came on here to post it publicly and wrote quite a few sentences about it.

Let it go. Relax. Breathe. It's a game run by VOLUNTEERS. Some can be nice, some can be jerks, some can just be doing their "jobs" and just see black and white.

Wait... I'm a jerk?! Yep!! I call people on their BS and love playing the Devil's Advocate.
"It's treason then."



Cranston's Character Generator for iDevices or Character Generator for Android

Amorgen's Excellent Excel Character Generator

Have you checked the Token DataBase ?

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Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 5 days ago #8

I have been corrected:

One draw = One token

Here are some scenarios to illustrate how to deal with the wand extracting more than one token on a single pull:

• On the player’s last draw, two tokens stick to the wand. Since the player is only entitled to one more
token, the attendant shows the player both tokens and lets the player decide which one to keep. Return the
unselected token back into the treasure generator.

• On the player’s penultimate (next to last) draw, three tokens are stuck to the wand. Since the player is
only entitled to two more tokens, the attendant shows the player all three tokens and lets the player decide
which two to keep. Return the unselected token back into the treasure generator.

• The player has turned in a single 3× TREASURE CHIP. On their very first pull, three tokens stick to the
wand. The player keeps all three tokens and is done drawing.

• The player has 8 draws remaining. Three tokens stick to the wand. The player keeps all three tokens and
now has 5 pulls remaining.

I've been teaching it wrong for several cons. This is why we ask for player feedback.

Thanks!

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Last edit: by ponyboy. Reason: Druegar has ninja like searching skills

Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 5 days ago #9

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Ro-gan wrote: True Dungeon couldn't exist without Volunteers. Volunteers. I'll say that yet again... Volunteers.

Yes... in a perfect world everything would be consistent when it comes to games, jobs, life, etc.

Volunteers aren't in danger of losing their jobs or a solid paycheck by doing something they feel is them just being nice to someone while helping with True Dungeon.

More than once when I was a Combat DM for TD a few years ago I would use my DM Power to resurrect a dead character. Usually because the person was a child and was truly disheartened they died.

SO!... There are 2 issues here which will cause some people to cry about unfairness and inconsistencies in TD...

1) A child was on a Run...
-- Get over it... it happens and was probably a special circumstance which was obviously approved by TPTB.

2) I resurrected someone...
-- Again, get over it. I made a decision and stand by it. The child was elated and his parents and their friends/family on that Run were happy.
-- TD gets positive feedback: "That DM was so nice!! He made our child happy. He realized it's about the fun and not killing parties."
-- TD does NOT get negative feedback: "That DM was a jerk. My child was devastated. I don't care if it's the rules and he was just doing what the module said. I will tell everyone I know TD sucks!!"

I'm sure I'll get one nut job on this thread now ripping me a new one for not being consistent and that I should have resurrected everyone that died in my Room that particular year.

In regards to the original Poster in this thread just think of the good that happened instead of focusing on the negative. You got lucky and had a very generous VOLUNTEER on one or two of your Treasure Pulls. The other VOLUNTEERS were just doing their jobs when they denied you the extra Tokens you and yours were lucky enough to pull up from the Treasure Box.

Inconsistencies or not you got lucky at least once.

And...! I know your response to me will be that you aren't complaining you juts want consistency and you're not griping. Yet... you are because you came on here to post it publicly and wrote quite a few sentences about it.

Let it go. Relax. Breathe. It's a game run by VOLUNTEERS. Some can be nice, some can be jerks, some can just be doing their "jobs" and just see black and white.

Wait... I'm a jerk?! Yep!! I call people on their BS and love playing the Devil's Advocate.


As a Dad that is trying to get my
Kids into TD
I say good looking out.👍
When a Falcon's Strike breaks the body
of its prey, it is because of timing.
Sun Tzu
Art of War 500 B.C.

D&D, been playing 35 years
GenCon, been going 23 years Straight
True Dungeon, been playing 16 years Straight and all 4 events last year.

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Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 5 days ago #10

ponyboy wrote: I have been corrected:

One draw = One token

Here are some scenarios to illustrate how to deal with the wand extracting more than one token on a single pull:

• On the player’s last draw, two tokens stick to the wand. Since the player is only entitled to one more
token, the attendant shows the player both tokens and lets the player decide which one to keep. Return the
unselected token back into the treasure generator.

• On the player’s penultimate (next to last) draw, three tokens are stuck to the wand. Since the player is
only entitled to two more tokens, the attendant shows the player all three tokens and lets the player decide
which two to keep. Return the unselected token back into the treasure generator.

• The player has turned in a single 3× TREASURE CHIP. On their very first pull, three tokens stick to the
wand. The player keeps all three tokens and is done drawing.

• The player has 8 draws remaining. Three tokens stick to the wand. The player keeps all three tokens and
now has 5 pulls remaining.

I've been teaching it wrong for several cons. This is why we ask for player feedback.

Thanks!


That makes a lot more sense. For the scenario where the player has at least two draws left and draws two tokens, do they keep both and it counts as two draws?

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Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 5 days ago #11

  • jedibcg
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Just to be clear this is not a new ruling or a change. Druegar posted about this post Gen Con 2017 when it came up. here is a link
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=597&id=245778&start=36#292035
it is post 47 if I cut it wrong. Jeff chimed in later that they would work out who decides which token to keep when the last pull is two.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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Feedback In Regards to Treasure Pulls/Draws 3 months 4 days ago #12

ponyboy wrote: One draw = One token
Here are some scenarios to illustrate how to deal with the wand extracting more than one token on a single pull:
• On the player’s last draw, two tokens stick to the wand. Since the player is only entitled to one more
token, the attendant shows the player both tokens and lets the player decide which one to keep. Return the
unselected token back into the treasure generator.
• On the player’s penultimate (next to last) draw, three tokens are stuck to the wand. Since the player is
only entitled to two more tokens, the attendant shows the player all three tokens and lets the player decide
which two to keep. Return the unselected token back into the treasure generator.
• The player has turned in a single 3× TREASURE CHIP. On their very first pull, three tokens stick to the
wand. The player keeps all three tokens and is done drawing.
• The player has 8 draws remaining. Three tokens stick to the wand. The player keeps all three tokens and
now has 5 pulls remaining.


Ok, each token counting as a draw is great; that is how it should be to avoid people trying to cheat the system. However, i am very strongly against letting people choose which token to keep when pulling their last draw.
If allowing filtering on the last draw, how many players will ask for all 1x treasure chips...then when the treasure box has no line, go turn them in 1 at a time. EVERY draw is their last, so any doubles let them pick the better token. With enough skill and time, they will be able to pull most of the best tokens and leave a significantly higher percentage of uncommons.
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