TOPIC: Request about the boss for E3

After several years of nearly unbeatable Smoak adventures, I don't want any more nearly unbeatable monsters, at least on Normal and Hardcore levels. Several of my friends in our True Dungeon group quit True Dungeon out of frustration in those years, I don't want to lose anyone else, I can barely put together a group for just one run on each of the Dungeons. They might quit before long due to price increases, but hopefully not from frustration on adventures.

I do agree the Dungeons are probably all set by now, but I'm sure tweaks on difficulty can be made, because they are sometimes made during the course of a GENCON.

Mike Steele wrote: After several years of nearly unbeatable Smoak adventures, I don't want any more nearly unbeatable monsters, at least on Normal and Hardcore levels. Several of my friends in our True Dungeon group quit True Dungeon out of frustration in those years, I don't want to lose anyone else, I can barely put together a group for just one run on each of the Dungeons. They might quit before long due to price increases, but hopefully not from frustration on adventures.

I do agree the Dungeons are probably all set by now, but I'm sure tweaks on difficulty can be made, because they are sometimes made during the course of a GENCON.

Ditto

Also, Illithids don't automatically eat the brain. It's a special attack and a somewhat dangerous and inconvenient one.

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: After several years of nearly unbeatable Smoak adventures, I don't want any more nearly unbeatable monsters, at least on Normal and Hardcore levels. Several of my friends in our True Dungeon group quit True Dungeon out of frustration in those years, I don't want to lose anyone else, I can barely put together a group for just one run on each of the Dungeons. They might quit before long due to price increases, but hopefully not from frustration on adventures.

I do agree the Dungeons are probably all set by now, but I'm sure tweaks on difficulty can be made, because they are sometimes made during the course of a GENCON.

Ditto

Also, Illithids don't automatically eat the brain. It's a special attack and a somewhat dangerous and inconvenient one.

Hey - I was trying to avoid spoilers with the baddie who shall not be named...

Yes, Illithids don't automatically eat the brains but if they have minions to give them a buffer, they know the best way to take out a party is to permanently remove as many members as they can (and high int characters are tasty!) The paralysis ability would be pretty dangerous to deal with as solutions for it aren't common. The biggest would be the area effect stun. I hope it doesn't all hinge on just having a single item (the Ioun Stone) to protect you (hopefully, there is a save, at least).

I also agree that the module is likely already written/finished and any changes are likely just tweaks here and there.

Normal, I completely agree with you guys - don't make that too hard as it could drive people away. Hardcore, I think players are choosing to take a higher level of risk. We've had a pendulum swing over the past few years where combats went from life and death to cake-walks. On epic at Origins on either E1 or E2 (I forget which), I was in a party that never had a combat go 3 rounds and had some end in 1 round. We took a total of 20 damage from combats from the whole party combined (more on puzzle rooms). Conversely, I had a great time doing Shadowlands 2 this year where we had people dying and individual attacks doing 60 damage to the entire party (unfortunately, it was my first time as a cleric - even with +23 healing, it ran me completely dry and had the druid, bard, and paladin helping).

I'm just saying a long arc deserves a memorable final conflict that can't be cake-walked through. I'm confident Jeff & crew will deliver - just voicing out a preference for it to start too hard and ratchet it back from there to balance it out.

Fred

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: After several years of nearly unbeatable Smoak adventures, I don't want any more nearly unbeatable monsters, at least on Normal and Hardcore levels. Several of my friends in our True Dungeon group quit True Dungeon out of frustration in those years, I don't want to lose anyone else, I can barely put together a group for just one run on each of the Dungeons. They might quit before long due to price increases, but hopefully not from frustration on adventures.

I do agree the Dungeons are probably all set by now, but I'm sure tweaks on difficulty can be made, because they are sometimes made during the course of a GENCON.

Ditto

Yes, also there is survivorship bias here on the forums - everyone here who encountered Smoak either found it good, neutral, or not bad enough to quit over. Those who quit aren't around to say "me too," but there were more than a few. I was almost among them.

Fred K wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: After several years of nearly unbeatable Smoak adventures, I don't want any more nearly unbeatable monsters, at least on Normal and Hardcore levels. Several of my friends in our True Dungeon group quit True Dungeon out of frustration in those years, I don't want to lose anyone else, I can barely put together a group for just one run on each of the Dungeons. They might quit before long due to price increases, but hopefully not from frustration on adventures.

I do agree the Dungeons are probably all set by now, but I'm sure tweaks on difficulty can be made, because they are sometimes made during the course of a GENCON.

Ditto

Also, Illithids don't automatically eat the brain. It's a special attack and a somewhat dangerous and inconvenient one.

Hey - I was trying to avoid spoilers with the baddie who shall not be named...

Yes, Illithids don't automatically eat the brains but if they have minions to give them a buffer, they know the best way to take out a party is to permanently remove as many members as they can (and high int characters are tasty!) The paralysis ability would be pretty dangerous to deal with as solutions for it aren't common. The biggest would be the area effect stun. I hope it doesn't all hinge on just having a single item (the Ioun Stone) to protect you (hopefully, there is a save, at least).

I also agree that the module is likely already written/finished and any changes are likely just tweaks here and there.

Normal, I completely agree with you guys - don't make that too hard as it could drive people away. Hardcore, I think players are choosing to take a higher level of risk. We've had a pendulum swing over the past few years where combats went from life and death to cake-walks. On epic at Origins on either E1 or E2 (I forget which), I was in a party that never had a combat go 3 rounds and had some end in 1 round. We took a total of 20 damage from combats from the whole party combined (more on puzzle rooms). Conversely, I had a great time doing Shadowlands 2 this year where we had people dying and individual attacks doing 60 damage to the entire party (unfortunately, it was my first time as a cleric - even with +23 healing, it ran me completely dry and had the druid, bard, and paladin helping).

I'm just saying a long arc deserves a memorable final conflict that can't be cake-walked through. I'm confident Jeff & crew will deliver - just voicing out a preference for it to start too hard and ratchet it back from there to balance it out.

Fred

Note that the Epic stats weren't actually available to DMs at Origins this year for E1/E2. So the DMs were just winging things if they played along with a party requesting Epic. So don't assume that Epic E1/E2 will be anywhere near that easy at GenCon.

And I'll throw my agreement with those saying that the boss should be able to be defeated. It may be extremely difficult on Epic, but it should at least be possible to do so in the allowed 12 minutes, without an entire reliance on luck.

I'll be DMing room 7 at GenCon.

Maybe we can work out a system with a special necklace or codeword, and if you tip me off, I won't let you win until the warning horn?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: After several years of nearly unbeatable Smoak adventures, I don't want any more nearly unbeatable monsters, at least on Normal and Hardcore levels. Several of my friends in our True Dungeon group quit True Dungeon out of frustration in those years, I don't want to lose anyone else, I can barely put together a group for just one run on each of the Dungeons. They might quit before long due to price increases, but hopefully not from frustration on adventures.

I do agree the Dungeons are probably all set by now, but I'm sure tweaks on difficulty can be made, because they are sometimes made during the course of a GENCON.

Ditto

Yes, also there is survivorship bias here on the forums - everyone here who encountered Smoak either found it good, neutral, or not bad enough to quit over. Those who quit aren't around to say "me too," but there were more than a few. I was almost among them.

I was right on the edge also, very close to quitting, those three years were so frustrating it just wasn't enjoyable. If the tickets had been $80 each back then, we'd have all quit for sure after just a year or two of Smoak.

It's likely to have 50% miss chance again.
It's likely to charm one or more player characters (removing player agency, but that's what these things do so acceptable annoyance).
If one was reading build status emails, it's at least 50% likely to hover at 16 feet for some rounds, forcing melee classes to be prepared with workarounds/backup weapons.

I doubt it will be a pushover.

I wasn't playing seriously in... was it 2011? Whenever there was the underwater dungeon. I had played 1-2 times before that, and that was almost my last time playing just because that was so frustrating.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: I only ran against Smoak once. It was NIGHTMARE and the party was in over their heads. I was the last one in the party standing. A solid hit would have killed him... but I overshot the target and he killed me. Even though I died, it was an epic encounter and I'll never forget it.

So whether it is here or in a future adventure, I'm looking forward to an equally memorable experience when we finally do fight the Mind Slayer and have no problem with entire parties being killed in the process as long as it's a fun experience.

I died the round before Eric did, I also over slid and got taken out for my bad aim. We had terrible equipment in retrospect but its one of our best TD memories. We used everything we had potions, ammo and we still lost...so close but it was truly EPIC! It motivated us to play more if anything. I'm very perplexed by anyone getting upset and quitting over losing, the danger is the fun. You are supposed to be adventurers, life threatening monsters comes with the territory lol.

I think TD has gotten too soft on the threat element, and yes there needs to be a balance but EVERY module should not be created equal. Too many experienced parties with amazing equipment mop the floor with Nightmare dungeons now, it's kind of pathetic and not fun. I miss the days of actually feeling threatened in TD. (I was upset when the Frost Giants were powered down, they actually put a real hurting on the party. That should be what Nightmare is about.) Making the Mind "Flayer" extra hard would be a welcomed change to keep players on their toes....and afraid.

Everyone should not get a trophy and you do not always win. Scale accordingly and if needed, put a warning label telling potential players how hard it will be to "overcome" the 6 year old villain. Problem solved.

Preach Fred K!

Harlax wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: But the module has probably been written at this point.

Pretty sure it has.

But things tend to change as the Con goes on. I was in the first N1 run at Origins last year. We cakewalked Nightmare. It was much tougher later in the day.

You're welcome....I was on that run with you. Multiple mazes on the ships captain got nerfed pretty quick.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: I only ran against Smoak once. It was NIGHTMARE and the party was in over their heads. I was the last one in the party standing. A solid hit would have killed him... but I overshot the target and he killed me. Even though I died, it was an epic encounter and I'll never forget it.

So whether it is here or in a future adventure, I'm looking forward to an equally memorable experience when we finally do fight the Mind Slayer and have no problem with entire parties being killed in the process as long as it's a fun experience.

I died the round before Eric did, I also over slid and got taken out for my bad aim. We had terrible equipment in retrospect but its one of our best TD memories. We used everything we had potions, ammo and we still lost...so close but it was truly EPIC! It motivated us to play more if anything. I'm very perplexed by anyone getting upset and quitting over losing, the danger is the fun. You are supposed to be adventurers, life threatening monsters comes with the territory lol.

I think TD has gotten too soft on the threat element, and yes there needs to be a balance but EVERY module should not be created equal. Too many experienced parties with amazing equipment mop the floor with Nightmare dungeons now, it's kind of pathetic and not fun. I miss the days of actually feeling threatened in TD. (I was upset when the Frost Giants were powered down, they actually put a real hurting on the party. That should be what Nightmare is about.) Making the Mind "Flayer" extra hard would be a welcomed change to keep players on their toes....and afraid.

Everyone should not get a trophy and you do not always win. Scale accordingly and if needed, put a warning label telling potential players how hard it will be to "overcome" the 6 year old villain. Problem solved.

Preach Fred K!

I agree with you that Nightmare and Epic should be ramped up. I was referring to Hardcore and Normal not ramping up.