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TOPIC: Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group

Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #25

I currently have a nightmare ready Barbarian. I ran with a group on normal this year. There were several people in the group who had played before but had never lived and wanted a survivor button.
My build if heavy melee, so at the beginning of combat, I would just used my ranged weapon to lower my hit. I would not switch to full melee until round 3 or 4. The last room we only just beat the dragon by 5 hit points as the time ran out. I happen to hit for over 50 of them. I feel like their is a time to use the big weapons and time to just use something that let's everyone else play. It was a fun group and we all cheered out of the dungeon having defeated the final monster.

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Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #26

Incognito wrote: Yes, but this is a design problem with the game.

The difficulty levels. The way runs are organized. The way tickets are sold.

Telling veteran players who have spent lots on tokens to just "suck it up" and to sacrifice their own enjoyment on behalf of the newbies - that is not a very satisfying mentality, which is the direction you and Kirk seem to be trending towards....


I guess I am just damned if I do... and damned if I don’t. I am 99.99% certain I am the monk who apparently ruined your run... and I take offense at what you “remembered” about what happened, even rewriting history a bit.

First, I did that run at least six times to ensure solving the puzzles, and one puzzle I finally solved on my third run and one of the others on my fifth run. I guess I am just stupid... not able to solve the puzzles the first time.

I did my best to help the party out... I feel I didn’t spoil the puzzles I had already solved and only helped out on those puzzles when asked. I would rather take the push damage than spoil the puzzle.

In the giant room, my recollection is only one player died (not two) and the Paladin sacrificed to save him... not two deaths (but I may be mistaken on that accord). Else how did we rez the other dead player? I don’t remember any mushrooms or potions of death’s door being used.

The complaint about my over powered tokens? Didn’t the entire party benefit? I carry ten charms of Avarice, ten Ioun Stones of the Silver Nugget, and ten Charms of Awakened Synergy. I thought I let everyone decide whether or not they wanted to borrow those tokens... which everyone did... giving everyone 18 treasure tokens instead of ony 3. Plus ten more hp and ten on our initiative rolls. How many more would have died in said giant battle without those ten more hp?

I thought you and the others were grateful... unlike some people, I won’t accept “tribute” or “tax” in lending them (some demand half the treasure pulls back for themselves from everyone who borrowed them).... giving essentially SIX TIMES the treasure pulls. Do you even know what those tokens you borrowed were worth? A CoA sells for $1400 quickly... times ten is fourteen thousand dollars! Plus another thousand for the 10 Ioun Stones, and $400 each for the charms of Awakened Synergy each totals $19,000. I am truly sorry you feel I was too over powered and should not have used the tokens I legitimately obtained.

Yes, I am heavily invested in the game... I love it, one of my few releases to decompress from my busy and stressful life (I even fly up from Buenos Aires, Argentina to play!).

I feel I didn’t push Nightmare, only said with what everyone had we could do hardcore and I didn’t push after the first player said they wanted normal.

I am sorry to have ruined your run... but if I hadn’t taken out the giant and we had deaths already, maybe a TPK might have occurred, making it so you wouldn’t see the last two rooms, but we will never know now, will we?

I feel that I didn’t force the lending of the tokens on you, but if you feel I did, I am truly and honestly sorry.

I guess I will just never offer to lend my treasure enhancers again... and just shut up and stay quiet in the corner, pulling my punches, letting the newbies and you take out the monsters. It is the puzzles that I really enjoy trying to solve! Which True Grind has none of!

I paid the same amount of money you paid to play that run... but now you feel I shouldn’t play? I do get a bit Intense... usually dress up a bit and try to add some role-play to the game. You feel I shouldn’t use the tokens I have transmuted or pulled from the treasure box? I tried to buy out all ten tickets to more runs so this wouldn’t happen, but unfortunately between myself, my brother, and two sons, we only were able to purchase a single run completely so we had to do “pickup games” instead.

Again, I am sorry you feel I ruined the “casual players” run... I am glad you brought this up... I thought I was a good ambassador for the game, helping out players. But now I see from your concerned comments and the other experienced players comments that that is not the case. It was not my intent to spoil anything.

So, in order to not ruin other people’s experiences, I hereby commit to never lend my tokens to others ever again, to stay my hand in combat if I am “over powered”, and sit in the corner in puzzle rooms I have already solved not letting out even a peep to ensure I don’t ruin the puzzle for others. This goes for all my tokens, not just the TE’s..

It will be nice to get some cash out of my tokens... I guess I only need a single CoA for myself... I know I can get at least $17,000 for the nine CoA’s, nine ISSN’s, and nine CoAS’s.

Again, I am truly sorry for ruining your’s and your friends’ experience on this run... that honestly was not my intent. Like I said at the beginning, I am damned if I do, and I am damned if I don’t... I just can’t win.

I am very disillusioned seeing how many other people agree with you saying I should cripple myself and not participate fully. I thought I was doing good in making the game fun for others, but now see I was dead wrong, doing the exact opposite.

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Last edit: by Mongo.

Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #27

Mongo, I don’t have any stake in this Gencon conversation, but let me be the first to say I appreciate you. My wife, buddy, and me ran with you at Origins and we had a great time. We already had 2/3 CoA and you were generous to my buddy any way. You had already ran the dungeon before and didn’t spoil anything for the one lady that did not.

I think you’re a good ambassador for the game.

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Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #28

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Try not to take it to personally Mongo, there are just some people you cant please.

But ya this is what I was talking about when I was saying we need to be careful with the newbies above all else attitude we seem to support after each con.

I'm not saying dont be a good ambassador to the game (which Mongo is) but let's try and keep our perspective and not self fladulate to much, as there are definitely people out there who will take advantage (newbies or not).
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

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Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #29

Mongo, thanks for adding more perspective to this, it definitely helps. And I've seen many who have done similar.

I'm always willing to modify my viewpoints as more information comes in. :-) Incognito brought some good points as well. My concern was primarily from token-holic vets overpowering by willpower, which it does not sound like you did at all. It sounds much closer to what Kurtreznor did when myself and a few others were new, with providing help. I've seen many vets who have sat back and provided hints while first time puzzle runners struggled with a puzzle, and then solving it in the last minute so we didn't take push.

If I caused offense looking at a problem I've read on the forums, I apologize on behalf of myself only. That was not my intent at all.

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Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #30

I wouldn't be so sure you were the monk in question Mongo.
While reading the OP, I believed it to be referencing a group of my friends who aren't really on the forums, and there were 5 or 6 of them, with 2 players who had never played before and 2 with a few purples and blues, with one ridiculously kitted out monk.

As it happens, it doesnt matter.

Knowing you, I am certain that you would work to help the enjoyment of the new players. Did you kill the monsters
In room 1 and 2 in 1 round? If not, it probably wasnt you.

Regardless, your play style is fine.

The post brings up an idea for discussion, how do we deal with the problem of such wild swings in gear levels? Veteran players like high level gear, myself definitely included!

Even if it was you, I would say dont take it personally, and keep up the good work. You are a great ambassador for our game.

I once heard a saying. "What someone else thinks of you is none of your business"
It's difficult to really come to deal with, when you do, it really helps.
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Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #31

Mongo wrote:

Incognito wrote: Yes, but this is a design problem with the game.

The difficulty levels. The way runs are organized. The way tickets are sold.

Telling veteran players who have spent lots on tokens to just "suck it up" and to sacrifice their own enjoyment on behalf of the newbies - that is not a very satisfying mentality, which is the direction you and Kirk seem to be trending towards....


I guess I am just damned if I do... and damned if I don’t. I am 99.99% certain I am the monk who apparently ruined your run... and I take offense at what you “remembered” about what happened, even rewriting history a bit.

First, I did that run at least six times to ensure solving the puzzles, and one puzzle I finally solved on my third run and one of the others on my fifth run. I guess I am just stupid... not able to solve the puzzles the first time.

I did my best to help the party out... I feel I didn’t spoil the puzzles I had already solved and only helped out on those puzzles when asked. I would rather take the push damage than spoil the puzzle.

In the giant room, my recollection is only one player died (not two) and the Paladin sacrificed to save him... not two deaths (but I may be mistaken on that accord). Else how did we rez the other dead player? I don’t remember any mushrooms or potions of death’s door being used.

The complaint about my over powered tokens? Didn’t the entire party benefit? I carry ten charms of Avarice, ten Ioun Stones of the Silver Nugget, and ten Charms of Awakened Synergy. I thought I let everyone decide whether or not they wanted to borrow those tokens... which everyone did... giving everyone 18 treasure tokens instead of ony 3. Plus ten more hp and ten on our initiative rolls. How many more would have died in said giant battle without those ten more hp?

I thought you and the others were grateful... unlike some people, I won’t accept “tribute” or “tax” in lending them (some demand half the treasure pulls back for themselves from everyone who borrowed them).... giving essentially SIX TIMES the treasure pulls. Do you even know what those tokens you borrowed were worth? A CoA sells for $1400 quickly... times ten is fourteen thousand dollars! Plus another thousand for the 10 Ioun Stones, and $400 each for the charms of Awakened Synergy each totals $19,000. I am truly sorry you feel I was too over powered and should not have used the tokens I legitimately obtained.

Yes, I am heavily invested in the game... I love it, one of my few releases to decompress from my busy and stressful life (I even fly up from Buenos Aires, Argentina to play!).

I feel I didn’t push Nightmare, only said with what everyone had we could do hardcore and I didn’t push after the first player said they wanted normal.

I am sorry to have ruined your run... but if I hadn’t taken out the giant and we had deaths already, maybe a TPK might have occurred, making it so you wouldn’t see the last two rooms, but we will never know now, will we?

I feel that I didn’t force the lending of the tokens on you, but if you feel I did, I am truly and honestly sorry.

I guess I will just never offer to lend my treasure enhancers again... and just shut up and stay quiet in the corner, pulling my punches, letting the newbies and you take out the monsters. It is the puzzles that I really enjoy trying to solve! Which True Grind has none of!

I paid the same amount of money you paid to play that run... but now you feel I shouldn’t play? I do get a bit Intense... usually dress up a bit and try to add some role-play to the game. You feel I shouldn’t use the tokens I have transmuted or pulled from the treasure box? I tried to buy out all ten tickets to more runs so this wouldn’t happen, but unfortunately between myself, my brother, and two sons, we only were able to purchase a single run completely so we had to do “pickup games” instead.

Again, I am sorry you feel I ruined the “casual players” run... I am glad you brought this up... I thought I was a good ambassador for the game, helping out players. But now I see from your concerned comments and the other experienced players comments that that is not the case. It was not my intent to spoil anything.

So, in order to not ruin other people’s experiences, I hereby commit to never lend my tokens to others ever again, to stay my hand in combat if I am “over powered”, and sit in the corner in puzzle rooms I have already solved not letting out even a peep to ensure I don’t ruin the puzzle for others. This goes for all my tokens, not just the TE’s..

It will be nice to get some cash out of my tokens... I guess I only need a single CoA for myself... I know I can get at least $17,000 for the nine CoA’s, nine ISSN’s, and nine CoAS’s.

Again, I am truly sorry for ruining your’s and your friends’ experience on this run... that honestly was not my intent. Like I said at the beginning, I am damned if I do, and I am damned if I don’t... I just can’t win.

I am very disillusioned seeing how many other people agree with you saying I should cripple myself and not participate fully. I thought I was doing good in making the game fun for others, but now see I was dead wrong, doing the exact opposite.


Hi Mongo

Based on your description, I don't think it was you. We didn't borrow any gear for treasure pulls on our N2, and no body was dressed up for the run. Borrowing big treasure draws would have been amazing, as almost the whole group draws 3, outside of the guy with the goggles of treasure finding. One adventure of 18 pulls would be more than we got for the whole con.

I believe one of the deaths was sacrificed by the paladin and the other was a token where they payed gold to avoid the death - I missed who died with both the deaths, and didn't know it had happened until the next room.

As for the puzzles, I'm not aware of anyone in the group having complaints that someone walked in and solved them for us. We had fun and didn't solve them all - We didn't get the whole party across the river, but its typical for us to not solve one. I think when it comes to puzzles, if one person immediately solved a puzzle, we would be annoyed though (ex, put all the arrows in the correct places first minute of the room).

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Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #32

Mongo, I have done several runs with you and I can say for sure, you are a great ambassador for the game. You and I ran and were not giving the solution to the new players in the stream room Rather try to provide hands by getting across the street Marcel and in the end we allowed them to take pushed him in rather than ruin their experience.
Your generosity and letting your tokens is truly appreciated my most.
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Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #33

I was on a two runs where I played in normal mode with a nightmare build. I don't tweak my tokens but I do tweak my play style. In N2 i spent two round freeing the NPC in the jail and let the group do the combat. I was less focused on speed during combats and relax and let the new players have fun. As for the puzzles tokens don't help, but if I have solved it before I let the players know that I have solved it so they don't feel I am not contributing for some other reason. I also state I will be willing to help them solve it should they ask. Not as much since the treasure rooms are gone as it matters less. I am typically never able to get on forum runs and end up playing with pickup events. I'd say about half my runs are great and the other have not so much because of the party.
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Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #34

Mekra wrote: I was on a two runs where I played in normal mode with a nightmare build. I don't tweak my tokens but I do tweak my play style. In N2 i spent two round freeing the NPC in the jail and let the group do the combat. I was less focused on speed during combats and relax and let the new players have fun. As for the puzzles tokens don't help, but if I have solved it before I let the players know that I have solved it so they don't feel I am not contributing for some other reason. I also state I will be willing to help them solve it should they ask. Not as much since the treasure rooms are gone as it matters less. I am typically never able to get on forum runs and end up playing with pickup events. I'd say about half my runs are great and the other have not so much because of the party.


This is the same approach I take when running with PUGs. Unless the class is requested by another player, I typically run my NM paladin build with the expressed intent of keeping the party alive. I'll skip sliding in combat unless necessary and I don't provide clues/answers unless explicitly requested. Otherwise, I just do as I am told by the rest of the party.
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Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #35

Endgame wrote: Overall, we were very happy with TD (9/10), but wished all the players had been a little more evenly geared on N2.


I'm glad. My number one concern is that newbies have a good time. But like Incognito said, it should not be at the expense of more seasoned players on the run. That also said, there is no solution making players "evenly geared" when runs feature players who do not know each other prior to entering the coaching room.

In fact, this sounds more like a human interaction issue than a global game-based one. Yes, these guys weren't the best ambassadors for TD and since humans vary in their thoughtfulness, that will happen from time to time. And in the case of new players running with vets with great gear, we all start with a little token envy at first but that's also what helps drive acquiring more powerful gear.

Finally, as someone who has run with Mongo for many years, even before we became friends, I have born witness to his kindness and generosity with new players. Further, I have also run many times where he knew a solution to a puzzle and in every instance, he stepped back and let the players who had not solved it before attempt to solve it. This most assuredly was not him.
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Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group 1 year 6 months ago #36

Incognito wrote: Yes, but this is a design problem with the game.

The difficulty levels. The way runs are organized. The way tickets are sold.

Telling veteran players who have spent lots on tokens to just "suck it up" and to sacrifice their own enjoyment on behalf of the newbies - that is not a very satisfying mentality, which is the direction you and Kirk seem to be trending towards....


Oh, I definitely think there is a better way to sell tickets and organize groups. Jeff can do more at td.events for the conventions where he is allowed to use it. But I could conceive of much better solutions.

However, within the current system, if you have a Nightmare build and end up with 9 newbies, sorry you need to ramp it down for that run.

Incognito: if you want to run a Nightmare-level build, then I suggest you find parties who want to play at the Nightmare difficulty level. Or a group of friends who don't care that you are way OP for normal difficulty.
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Last edit: by Kirk Bauer.
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