TOPIC: Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group

Endgame wrote: A question that came up from our group -

It seems that the adventure runs are the ones where vets / invested players run them multiple times. Is this to grind for treasure? Once you've solved the puzzles, you've really boiled the adventure down to 3 combats.

Is grind more, uh, interesting for multiple runs? (we've never done grind figuring we don't have enough gear) Its 5 combats and no solved puzzles.

This is more or less a long way of asking: why isn't grind the preferred method to grind for treasure?

We sometimes do different challenges upon ourselves, like we ran with all turkey legs for one run as weapons and no spells, it was amusing.

This year I am going to sponsor a 100+ hp run at Gameholecon. It tends to make the builds in general weaker but then everyone has a bunch of hitpoints so no one dies.

James J Krot wrote: If I get stuck in a normal group I generally ask the DM to take 10 off my damage but leave my ac alone. That way I am hitting like a normal geared barbarian instead of a nightmare built cleric or fighter. Generally speaking no one really minds if I still uber heal but for sake of making it non trivial I remove my extra 10 healing bonus and only generally equip 1 eldritch item. Its tough not to feel challenged because 3 people are putting out as much damage as an entire party could do and I get that is frustrating. I honestly think we should have max stats for normal runs because this happens a lot.

Having Max stats for a difficulty would put more of a burden on the Coaches as they would have to check the stats and then downgrade them. I normally keep my stats but only help out when needed when in a normal group.

I don't see more legislation solving the problem of imbalances in builds. Too many possibilities for builds, too many scenarios for how a party end up together, differing goals. I know putting more burdens on the coach are to be avoided, but the coach probably has the best idea of when a party is way out of whack and could ask the overequipped player if wants to take some numbers down.

In the only run I did at Origins in a normal dungeon, I tried out an extreme Dex build that I would never run in nightmare and am not sure is good enough for the team in hardcore. I certainly didn't think it worked well for a six player hardcore run. But, until I play it, how do I know? If anything, the problem was having too low a damage bonus to put monsters down faster to help everyone else, even if it was nigh impossible to actually miss doing 10-12 damage a round. I learned something and made adjustments for a more appropriate hardcore build that, yes, would be a bit much for normal, but the principle is there.

Not just experimentation or needing time to learn balance levels, though I learned pretty quick that running normal with 72hp was less fun because I could ignore the dungeon. It's possible that someone equipped much better is not subtracting fun from the party. How much power gain is acceptable every time you drop a player? My most difficult runs were with less than full parties, but what's another player worth?

And, then, what about parties that all know each other and don't care that Wendy Whale swallows dragon-liches whole? Just a lot of effort to police people's behavior.

I am certainly surprised how many times some veterans do runs. There are some who do the same run 4 or 5 times at a convention. I don't have a problem with it if they aren't ruining anybody else's experience, but it does seem like a lot. For me, at GenCon, I typically do each dungeon just once, and TrueGrind once. I like to experience everything. Then at the other conventions (which are less expensive AND easier to get full runs at), I would prefer to do each run a second time over the next 10 months. For the second time through I might try more creative things, like sealed pack runs, or smaller party sizes, or try Nightmare with only one token, etc.

But for me I usually have entire runs, so if I'm with newer players I know that in advance. Veterans need to be very careful to (1) not ruin puzzles for others by giving unwanted hints, (2) not ruin combat by dealing too much damage, and (3) not overwhelm newer players with tokens and strategies, nor try to coerce them to play at a harder difficulty.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I am certainly surprised how many times some veterans do runs. There are some who do the same run 4 or 5 times at a convention. I don't have a problem with it if they aren't ruining anybody else's experience, but it does seem like a lot. For me, at GenCon, I typically do each dungeon just once, and TrueGrind once. I like to experience everything. Then at the other conventions (which are less expensive AND easier to get full runs at), I would prefer to do each run a second time over the next 10 months. For the second time through I might try more creative things, like sealed pack runs, or smaller party sizes, or try Nightmare with only one token, etc.

But for me I usually have entire runs, so if I'm with newer players I know that in advance. Veterans need to be very careful to (1) not ruin puzzles for others by giving unwanted hints, (2) not ruin combat by dealing too much damage, and (3) not overwhelm newer players with tokens and strategies, nor try to coerce them to play at a harder difficulty.

Some do so many runs because we can't do multiple conventions With PAX South we have a opportunity to do a second con, since it's a 90 min drive from our home, but if you have to do it all in 1 con and want to survive all dungeons and get all the puzzles solved yourself multiple runs are a must.

As a veteran player with some solid Nightmare builds I have found myself in many a group of new people with disparate stats. How I handle it just really depends on the situation.

On numerous occasions by the time some new people pop into the room my stats are already on the sheet. In that case I do not like to ask the coach to make changes. If I do have a chance to change I try to play a fun alternate build. Bard is a good go too. I can have my good build but not steal anyone thunder. Just be Oprah the Bard. "You get a bonus, and you get a bonus....." Or maybe I will toss all my strength bump item to a Wizard and become the Wizard Academy Wrestling Champion. Or Just play the Cleric.

Sometimes I just hang back for a round or two, or intentionally slide ranged. (Or whichever form I am worst at)


Either way I just make sure I let the group know what is going on and that I want them all to have a fun time. And that I will ensure they stay healed up (ressed if needed) and will step in if needed.

I normally run multiple times to run with different groups of friends.

In terms of messing with people stats I dont think we should do it at all. If someone wants to lower their stats they can by taking off a piece of two. Beyond that I dont think we should be telling anyone how to have fun, as was pointed out there are to many permutations of party to cover with a single blanket rule.

Why do the same dungeon more than once?

Some of it is because I like to run with different people, a chance to socialize. Usually at GenCon, I'll at least run with the team I coordinate as well as Team Synergy. Then maybe duck into a few additional runs to maybe meet some new people.

I also like to see how different people approach some of the problems. One of my N1 runs at Origins was with a group of mostly first time players, and they came up with a unique approach to the bridge that I didn't see any veteran groups consider, for example.

Sometimes I like to be pushed to try out different classes. So the Normal runs I randomly wind up in end up being when I play Wizard or some other class I don't usually play (unless the party is lacking a Cleric).

Kirk Bauer wrote: 2) Us veteran players should definitely LOWER our own stats if we are running normal difficulty. For me, I will either use a starter build, or I will just remove most of my tokens. Make it a challenge run. For example, can I survive a Normal difficulty run with only one token (e.g. my Legendary melee weapon)? Exception: if you are a healer, keep some of that as well so you can help out the newer players.

persolo wrote: As Kirk said...the vets should have lowered for the Non geared out players.

I strongly disagree.

I don't think the veteran players should have to lower their own stats or feel obligated to do so. Otherwise, what is the point of having good tokens/equipment?

It's like in the past when Nightmare was too easy and people were like "well why don't you just use crappier equipment." To which my response is "then what is the point of having good tokens if you can't use it?"

I don't think anyone is at fault in this issue. It's just you weren't able to reach compromise that met everyone's needs.

And you make a good point on that, as well..I've taken quite a bit of time and effort to trick myself out to the best I can...I just also remember being a noob and feeling quite underpowered in comparison to others (that still happens every once in a bit, depending on who I run with)

I just worry that the scenario first presented really can cause people to feel like it's not a challenge if they have an overpowered build on their team. Though, if I waited til the end of the round and critted/killed the monster...I could see that being a medium of sorts. The thing that bothers me, personally, is new folks getting in, feeling like overpowered characters took over their normal run, and not trying it again due to frustration. We've seen others rage quit due to a variety of reasons...I dislike that being one of them.

Yes, but this is a design problem with the game.

The difficulty levels. The way runs are organized. The way tickets are sold.

Telling veteran players who have spent lots on tokens to just "suck it up" and to sacrifice their own enjoyment on behalf of the newbies - that is not a very satisfying mentality, which is the direction you and Kirk seem to be trending towards....

Incognito wrote: Yes, but this is a design problem with the game.

The difficulty levels. The way runs are organized. The way tickets are sold.

Telling veteran players who have spent lots on tokens to just "suck it up" and to sacrifice their own enjoyment on behalf of the newbies - that is not a very satisfying mentality, which is the direction you and Kirk seem to be trending towards....

While I fully accept we need a consistent supply of new players to keep the game healthy, I also think it's also worth considering that a high percentage of newbies will only ever run once no matter what, where as vets have proven they are a source of repeat business. IMO it's not a great idea to ask either group to suffer for the other.