TOPIC: Gen Con General Feedback from Casual Group

Hi All,

First off, my TD group is 5 people and we have been running one of each adventure since 2015 (ex 2 adventures at gen con) - we run normal and are mostly fit with red gear, with a 4 total purples and some uncommons filling random spots to avoid blank slots.

We really liked the improvements to the holding rooms and the sets in general this year. At a high level, we only failed 3 puzzles (we tend to fail 1 per adventure). The difference in quality could really be seen comparing Viper to N1-3. We figured out early to find the speaker in each room when there was dialog, and that is where we stood. That meant that while the audio wasn't the best, we were able to generally understand most of it.

On the downside, combat was completely non memorable on N2, but not directly tied to the adventure itself. I'm sure this kind of thing comes up all the time, but let me explain:

For this adventure, we swapped out 2 of our normal group for 2 friends who had never done True Dungeon before. We had 2 additional new players in the adventure that were not a part of our group (so 4 newbies total), 2 players not in our group with about half purple and few blues, and a mega kitted monk. The monk was running at lease 3 legendary items, at least 2 green items (green boots and ring), and I'm not sure what all other awesome stuff - couldn't see from where I was sitting.

The guys with all the gear wanted to run nightmare. The new people wanted to run normal - we ended up running normal, which was sub optimal. The first two combats were not memorable as the monsters were wiped in 1 round (I had to look them up to even remember the fights). The giants were slightly more of a challenge - the geared up monk killed one on his own in like 2 or 3 rounds of combat, and then finished off the second one. The giants killed 2 of the new players, but thankfully someone was able to rez them.

The group generally felt that we were just getting in the way of the 3 players with all the gear - the 3 of them could have handled the whole adventure. At the same time, we were pretty sure everyone else would have died at hardcore or higher level based on discussions in the hall about how hard hardcore was.

I'm not sure if there is a solution outside of limiting gear in normal difficulty (which I don't think is practical), but it definitely made N2 less fun than N1 and 3.

Overall, we were very happy with TD (9/10), but wished all the players had been a little more evenly geared on N2.

Endgame wrote: Hi All,

First off, my TD group is 5 people and we have been running one of each adventure since 2015 (ex 2 adventures at gen con) - we run normal and are mostly fit with red gear, with a 4 total purples and some uncommons filling random spots to avoid blank slots.

We really liked the improvements to the holding rooms and the sets in general this year. At a high level, we only failed 3 puzzles (we tend to fail 1 per adventure). The difference in quality could really be seen comparing Viper to N1-3. We figured out early to find the speaker in each room when there was dialog, and that is where we stood. That meant that while the audio wasn't the best, we were able to generally understand most of it.

On the downside, combat was completely non memorable on N2, but not directly tied to the adventure itself. I'm sure this kind of thing comes up all the time, but let me explain:

For this adventure, we swapped out 2 of our normal group for 2 friends who had never done True Dungeon before. We had 2 additional new players in the adventure that were not a part of our group (so 4 newbies total), 2 players not in our group with about half purple and few blues, and a mega kitted monk. The monk was running at lease 3 legendary items, at least 2 green items (green boots and ring), and I'm not sure what all other awesome stuff - couldn't see from where I was sitting.

The guys with all the gear wanted to run nightmare. The new people wanted to run normal - we ended up running normal, which was sub optimal. The first two combats were not memorable as the monsters were wiped in 1 round (I had to look them up to even remember the fights). The giants were slightly more of a challenge - the geared up monk killed one on his own in like 2 or 3 rounds of combat, and then finished off the second one. The giants killed 2 of the new players, but thankfully someone was able to rez them.

The group generally felt that we were just getting in the way of the 3 players with all the gear - the 3 of them could have handled the whole adventure. At the same time, we were pretty sure everyone else would have died at hardcore or higher level based on discussions in the hall about how hard hardcore was.

I'm not sure if there is a solution outside of limiting gear in normal difficulty (which I don't think is practical), but it definitely made N2 less fun than N1 and 3.

Overall, we were very happy with TD (9/10), but wished all the players had been a little more evenly geared on N2.

As a player coach calculating and writing down everything on the party card, I've wondered if there isn't an opportunity to scale down a high geared player to more evenly balance the group (or conversely scale up less experienced players). Like in Endgame's example, the veteran players were outvoted and had to do normal but their higher gear meant combat was over pretty quickly.

The AC jump from Normal to Hardcore is around 33%, and from Normal to Nightmare 45%. Obviously those numbers will change a little with this years' adventures (and the addition of Epic level difficulty).

I think if we applied a 1/3 reduction in combat related stats (HP, melee hit/damage, ranged hit/damage, AC, spell damage, and healing to "hardcore" level players it would make the experience better for everyone. Perhaps a 1/2 mod to nightmare level players. The difficulty would be determining what "hardcore" and "nightmare" levels are. I'd say leave it up to the players.

See if the character generator folks could add a handicap drop-down to apply or something. Again, making it optional, not mandatory. Just something to keep things fun and competitive without veterans having to scrap their gear or blow through combat.

Endgame wrote: Overall, we were very happy with TD (9/10), but wished all the players had been a little more evenly geared on N2.

Thanks very much for your feedback

Joshua Baessler wrote: See if the character generator folks could add a handicap drop-down to apply or something. Again, making it optional, not mandatory. Just something to keep things fun and competitive without veterans having to scrap their gear or blow through combat.

They could always have taken off some gear too

I have two thoughts:

1) Obviously your experience will always be better if you can buy the full 10 tickets and create your own party, but I know that isn't realistic for everybody. Or find a group here on the forums instead.

2) Us veteran players should definitely LOWER our own stats if we are running normal difficulty. For me, I will either use a starter build, or I will just remove most of my tokens. Make it a challenge run. For example, can I survive a Normal difficulty run with only one token (e.g. my Legendary melee weapon)? Exception: if you are a healer, keep some of that as well so you can help out the newer players.

As Kirk said...the vets should have lowered for the Non geared out players.

I've had a few occasions where I was grabbed in a hallways and asked to run...for a group who had never run before and definitely never run with me. Instead of purp weapons, I went with a few rares...and tried to get my strength (Barbarian Nightmare run normally) down as well...just so the players would have fun.

That said, it if was coming close to time, I'd try to up my game a little so they party didn't take push damage...

It always will depend on the player. Sadly, some are just in it to beat things up no matter what...but I like to think the majority of us want the game to be fun for those playing at any level.

I never sandbag my character, but I’m very careful (nowadays anyway) not to take over.

I’ve been on Normal runs with newbies where I didn’t even slide unless they cried out for help On one run I did nothing at all, because they handled it. I was proud of them, but kinda bored.

But I’ve been with Normal groups that weren’t very efficient, and even with Shelly and me swinging, the monsters died with only seconds to spare - but jumping in seemed preferable to harassing them to speed up. And everyone was contributing and they seemed to have a lot of fun, so that’s the main thing.

A question that came up from our group -

It seems that the adventure runs are the ones where vets / invested players run them multiple times. Is this to grind for treasure? Once you've solved the puzzles, you've really boiled the adventure down to 3 combats.

Is grind more, uh, interesting for multiple runs? (we've never done grind figuring we don't have enough gear) Its 5 combats and no solved puzzles.

This is more or less a long way of asking: why isn't grind the preferred method to grind for treasure?

Endgame wrote: why isn't grind the preferred method to grind for treasure?

Because Grind only grants a single treasure chip and doesn’t allow treasure enhancers. But sometimes the completion token is cool.

Endgame wrote: A question that came up from our group -

It seems that the adventure runs are the ones where vets / invested players run them multiple times. Is this to grind for treasure? Once you've solved the puzzles, you've really boiled the adventure down to 3 combats.

Is grind more, uh, interesting for multiple runs? (we've never done grind figuring we don't have enough gear) Its 5 combats and no solved puzzles.

This is more or less a long way of asking: why isn't grind the preferred method to grind for treasure?

The reason we run multiple runs (9 this year) was to make sure we survived each of the dungeon and also we like to solve all the puzzles as well. The treasure is good (401 pulls this year) but we don't do to make anything other than upgrade stuff

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote: why isn't grind the preferred method to grind for treasure?

Because Grind only grants a single treasure chip and doesn’t allow treasure enhancers. But sometimes the completion token is cool.

Ah ha - that makes sense why grind isn't being used to grind treasure .

Though my follow up question is: why is grind the limited event and not the adventures? It seems like the optimal path at Gen Con would be to have everyone do the adventures once or twice, thus freeing up slots for other people who hadn't done the puzzles, and then have the grind for treasure treasure happen in grind. Since grind is more combats, it would (maybe?) make a difficult decision between treasure enhancers and gear too (also presuming you only get the extra treasure chips for surviving)

If I get stuck in a normal group I generally ask the DM to take 10 off my damage but leave my ac alone. That way I am hitting like a normal geared barbarian instead of a nightmare built cleric or fighter. Generally speaking no one really minds if I still uber heal but for sake of making it non trivial I remove my extra 10 healing bonus and only generally equip 1 eldritch item. Its tough not to feel challenged because 3 people are putting out as much damage as an entire party could do and I get that is frustrating. I honestly think we should have max stats for normal runs because this happens a lot.

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote: why isn't grind the preferred method to grind for treasure?

Because Grind only grants a single treasure chip and doesn’t allow treasure enhancers. But sometimes the completion token is cool.

Ah ha - that makes sense why grind isn't being used to grind treasure .

Though my follow up question is: why is grind the limited event and not the adventures? It seems like the optimal path at Gen Con would be to have everyone do the adventures once or twice, thus freeing up slots for other people who hadn't done the puzzles, and then have the grind for treasure treasure happen in grind. Since grind is more combats, it would (maybe?) make a difficult decision between treasure enhancers and gear too (also presuming you only get the extra treasure chips for surviving)

Grind is something that was added later for people that just love combat after combat. It is run by a small few DMs and headed up by Incongnito. It also doesn't have full time staffing so it's only run for X number of hours per day. It does not allow treasure enhancers.