TOPIC: Melee Damage in 2020

I’d love to see this table using UR/ +2 relics or lower tokens. For those of us not-quite-legendary-yet players.

Brad F wrote: I’d love to see this table using UR/ +2 relics or lower tokens. For those of us not-quite-legendary-yet players.

Deciding on those builds is very tough. Key components for builds like that are oop 10 years +. Do you count those? If not, do you stick to last X years?

Endgame wrote:

MasterED wrote: Thanks for putting in the time.

I want to relay that I think when we start putting in tokens for just damage and severely neglect survivability we are creating unrealistic builds. Could those builds be used, sure. Will they in the future I think the tide is turning primarily if you play Nightmare and Epic. If you want to compare outputs I would suggest you also consider some defense and make sure to include your builds in your spreadsheet for transparency (I am sure you are just making sure everyone is aware).

Ed

I would argue that defense (at least in the form of AC) is one of the few areas where you can skimp. That said, we certainly shouldn't be skipping TEs (I don't think anyone is leaving their CoA or nuggets at home for +1 damage) and there should really probably be a minimum hit point level.

I'm going to give that druid a shot for 2020... will post again in a few minutes.

Regarding defense. Over the years this seems to be the one stat that like you said, people can skimp on. I'm hoping (and planning on) this changing. When playing D&D a high AC is VERY beneficial and one lots of characters strive for. Half of a fight after all is defense. I'm hoping that at the Nightmare and Epic levels players with a very low AC get wiped. Unless they have a huge amount of HP that allows the to take a hit. We've got tons of cool AC tokens, 4 of which are Legendary. Hopefully TPTB finds a way to make defense come in to play more.

Rob F wrote:

Endgame wrote:

MasterED wrote: Thanks for putting in the time.

I want to relay that I think when we start putting in tokens for just damage and severely neglect survivability we are creating unrealistic builds. Could those builds be used, sure. Will they in the future I think the tide is turning primarily if you play Nightmare and Epic. If you want to compare outputs I would suggest you also consider some defense and make sure to include your builds in your spreadsheet for transparency (I am sure you are just making sure everyone is aware).

Ed

I would argue that defense (at least in the form of AC) is one of the few areas where you can skimp. That said, we certainly shouldn't be skipping TEs (I don't think anyone is leaving their CoA or nuggets at home for +1 damage) and there should really probably be a minimum hit point level.

I'm going to give that druid a shot for 2020... will post again in a few minutes.

Regarding defense. Over the years this seems to be the one stat that like you said, people can skimp on. I'm hoping (and planning on) this changing. When playing D&D a high AC is VERY beneficial and one lots of characters strive for. Half of a fight after all is defense. I'm hoping that at the Nightmare and Epic levels players with a very low AC get wiped. Unless they have a huge amount of HP that allows the to take a hit. We've got tons of cool AC tokens, 4 of which are Legendary. Hopefully TPTB finds a way to make defense come in to play more.

Maybe part of that is to make sure that each of the heavy-AC classes has a way to ensure their high AC actually comes into play. Dwarf has Taunt and Paladin has Guard. Fighter and even maybe Cleric could use a way to actively make their AC matter (instead of just causing monster to target a lower AC character).

Brad F wrote: I’d love to see this table using UR/ +2 relics or lower tokens. For those of us not-quite-legendary-yet players.

Here's a similar tool that does it for URs, but only through 2019. 2020 would shake things up as the 2 handed melee classes would all be using the Bracers of Reckless Fury, and the spellcasters would be using Ioun Stone Banshee Prism.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13Cq75DAjx5e-RUIEyPSDwm8nsB9sss33B7pTOdpNrE4/edit#gid=2002207380

Fiddy wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Endgame wrote:

MasterED wrote: Thanks for putting in the time.

I want to relay that I think when we start putting in tokens for just damage and severely neglect survivability we are creating unrealistic builds. Could those builds be used, sure. Will they in the future I think the tide is turning primarily if you play Nightmare and Epic. If you want to compare outputs I would suggest you also consider some defense and make sure to include your builds in your spreadsheet for transparency (I am sure you are just making sure everyone is aware).

Ed

I would argue that defense (at least in the form of AC) is one of the few areas where you can skimp. That said, we certainly shouldn't be skipping TEs (I don't think anyone is leaving their CoA or nuggets at home for +1 damage) and there should really probably be a minimum hit point level.

I'm going to give that druid a shot for 2020... will post again in a few minutes.

Regarding defense. Over the years this seems to be the one stat that like you said, people can skimp on. I'm hoping (and planning on) this changing. When playing D&D a high AC is VERY beneficial and one lots of characters strive for. Half of a fight after all is defense. I'm hoping that at the Nightmare and Epic levels players with a very low AC get wiped. Unless they have a huge amount of HP that allows the to take a hit. We've got tons of cool AC tokens, 4 of which are Legendary. Hopefully TPTB finds a way to make defense come in to play more.

Maybe part of that is to make sure that each of the heavy-AC classes has a way to ensure their high AC actually comes into play. Dwarf has Taunt and Paladin has Guard. Fighter and even maybe Cleric could use a way to actively make their AC matter (instead of just causing monster to target a lower AC character).

In fairness AC doesn't really scale in a meaningful way in 5th edition.

FYI - I did some sample builds in terms of survivability - as expected the numbers didn't change much.

It was pretty easy to make a Monk build with:

24 to hit (instead of 26)
40 to damage (instead of 45)
Doesn't use Charm of Quick Strike

But has:
1. max treasure
2. 30 AC
3. 19/24/21 saves
4. 41 HP + Charm of Awakened Synergy.

One could tune it up more, but the point is basically drop -2/-5-ish from all these builds to get a perfectly reasonable max treasure nightmare capable build. The impact would be basically the same on all classes if they:

1. Equip the best torso AC item.
2. Charm of Glory + Rolland's Ring of Protection +6
3. Bead of the Lucky Traveler + Pharacus' Cloak of Destiny
4. Fiddle about a bit with +2 save Iouns, +2 DEX Ioun and Charms.

Matthew Hayward wrote: FYI - I did some sample builds in terms of survivability - as expected the numbers didn't change much.

It was pretty easy to make a Monk build with:

24 to hit (instead of 26)
40 to damage (instead of 45)
Doesn't use Charm of Quick Strike

But has:
1. max treasure
2. 30 AC
3. 19/24/21 saves
4. 41 HP + Charm of Awakened Synergy.

One could tune it up more, but the point is basically drop -2/-5-ish from all these builds to get a perfectly reasonable max treasure nightmare capable build. The impact would be basically the same on all classes if they:

1. Equip the best torso AC item.
2. Charm of Glory + Rolland's Ring of Protection +6
3. Bead of the Lucky Traveler + Pharacus' Cloak of Destiny
4. Fiddle about a bit with +2 save Iouns, +2 DEX Ioun and Charms.

This sounds about right. I expect almost every build to carry a charm of glory in some fashion at the high end, and arcane earcuff ensures that there is not slot contention to fit the charm of glory, and likely a charm of brooching, just in case you need another +4 all saves.

We might need a legendary earcuff just to force some decisions on that slot.

I really thought the bard item should have been an earcuff - it is the only class where it wouldhave made sense .

Fred

Rob F wrote:

Endgame wrote:

MasterED wrote: Thanks for putting in the time.

I want to relay that I think when we start putting in tokens for just damage and severely neglect survivability we are creating unrealistic builds. Could those builds be used, sure. Will they in the future I think the tide is turning primarily if you play Nightmare and Epic. If you want to compare outputs I would suggest you also consider some defense and make sure to include your builds in your spreadsheet for transparency (I am sure you are just making sure everyone is aware).

Ed

I would argue that defense (at least in the form of AC) is one of the few areas where you can skimp. That said, we certainly shouldn't be skipping TEs (I don't think anyone is leaving their CoA or nuggets at home for +1 damage) and there should really probably be a minimum hit point level.

I'm going to give that druid a shot for 2020... will post again in a few minutes.

Regarding defense. Over the years this seems to be the one stat that like you said, people can skimp on. I'm hoping (and planning on) this changing. When playing D&D a high AC is VERY beneficial and one lots of characters strive for. Half of a fight after all is defense. I'm hoping that at the Nightmare and Epic levels players with a very low AC get wiped. Unless they have a huge amount of HP that allows the to take a hit. We've got tons of cool AC tokens, 4 of which are Legendary. Hopefully TPTB finds a way to make defense come in to play more.

This is easy to do: AOE attacks vs. AC.

Picc wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Endgame wrote:

MasterED wrote: Thanks for putting in the time.

I want to relay that I think when we start putting in tokens for just damage and severely neglect survivability we are creating unrealistic builds. Could those builds be used, sure. Will they in the future I think the tide is turning primarily if you play Nightmare and Epic. If you want to compare outputs I would suggest you also consider some defense and make sure to include your builds in your spreadsheet for transparency (I am sure you are just making sure everyone is aware).

Ed

I would argue that defense (at least in the form of AC) is one of the few areas where you can skimp. That said, we certainly shouldn't be skipping TEs (I don't think anyone is leaving their CoA or nuggets at home for +1 damage) and there should really probably be a minimum hit point level.

I'm going to give that druid a shot for 2020... will post again in a few minutes.

Regarding defense. Over the years this seems to be the one stat that like you said, people can skimp on. I'm hoping (and planning on) this changing. When playing D&D a high AC is VERY beneficial and one lots of characters strive for. Half of a fight after all is defense. I'm hoping that at the Nightmare and Epic levels players with a very low AC get wiped. Unless they have a huge amount of HP that allows the to take a hit. We've got tons of cool AC tokens, 4 of which are Legendary. Hopefully TPTB finds a way to make defense come in to play more.

Maybe part of that is to make sure that each of the heavy-AC classes has a way to ensure their high AC actually comes into play. Dwarf has Taunt and Paladin has Guard. Fighter and even maybe Cleric could use a way to actively make their AC matter (instead of just causing monster to target a lower AC character).

In fairness AC doesn't really scale in a meaningful way in 5th edition.

AC does not stack high in 5th. AC does stack in a very meaningful way, and it is usually limited like stats are.

macXdmg wrote:

Picc wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Endgame wrote:

MasterED wrote: Thanks for putting in the time.

I want to relay that I think when we start putting in tokens for just damage and severely neglect survivability we are creating unrealistic builds. Could those builds be used, sure. Will they in the future I think the tide is turning primarily if you play Nightmare and Epic. If you want to compare outputs I would suggest you also consider some defense and make sure to include your builds in your spreadsheet for transparency (I am sure you are just making sure everyone is aware).

Ed

I would argue that defense (at least in the form of AC) is one of the few areas where you can skimp. That said, we certainly shouldn't be skipping TEs (I don't think anyone is leaving their CoA or nuggets at home for +1 damage) and there should really probably be a minimum hit point level.

I'm going to give that druid a shot for 2020... will post again in a few minutes.

Regarding defense. Over the years this seems to be the one stat that like you said, people can skimp on. I'm hoping (and planning on) this changing. When playing D&D a high AC is VERY beneficial and one lots of characters strive for. Half of a fight after all is defense. I'm hoping that at the Nightmare and Epic levels players with a very low AC get wiped. Unless they have a huge amount of HP that allows the to take a hit. We've got tons of cool AC tokens, 4 of which are Legendary. Hopefully TPTB finds a way to make defense come in to play more.

Maybe part of that is to make sure that each of the heavy-AC classes has a way to ensure their high AC actually comes into play. Dwarf has Taunt and Paladin has Guard. Fighter and even maybe Cleric could use a way to actively make their AC matter (instead of just causing monster to target a lower AC character).

In fairness AC doesn't really scale in a meaningful way in 5th edition.

AC does not stack high in 5th. AC does stack in a very meaningful way, and it is usually limited like stats are.

We may be quibbling about terms. What I meant was you cant really make yourself an uninhabitable build the way you used to be able to by stacking AC