Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #13

Makes bonus apply to entire round of actions. Easier to managed consistently across various characters and abilities.

Your example include a token so I figure the goal was to reign in total damage and possibly total healing so that all classes are more closely aligned.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #14

Endgame wrote: Sure, the Monk deals more damage than the fighter, BUT the fighter gets to wear heavy armor.


People like to bring up the Fighter being able to wear heavy armor as a significant benefit. In reality it is overvalued. The thing is, the Monk dealing more damage actually helps the party kill the monster faster. The Fighter wearing heavy armor 90% of the time translates into "monster decides to attack someone else in the party and hits them" (usually someone with fewer HP than the Fighter). So the Fighter being able to wear heavy armor usually provides no benefit (and definitely not an every-round-of-combat benefit). The Dwarf Fighter at least can (usually) force their higher AC to matter 1/combat, but that is still just 1/combat, not every round like the Monk bonus.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Fiddy.

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #15

If this is really a problem, and I'm not convinced it is, do remember that the sliding of two pucks is in of itself more challenging. Additionally, other potential solutions:
Create weapons that are unusable by those classes and have a larger damage wheel.
During character card revision, advocate for something on the fighter card that is more "useful" than the reslide.
Make monsters with a low intelligence have to randomly select a target.
Have more retribution damage and have it tied to AC (e.g., the fighter would take less than the monk and ranger).

Probably more to come...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #16

I think all the folks that have poured $$$ into Monk and melee Ranger builds would be pretty peeved by that proposal. If folks think Monk/Ranger are too OP, I would rather see something like increased monster AC. Sliding with two pucks accurately enough to hit has been intended to be the counterbalance for being able to dual-wield.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #17

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: Sure, the Monk deals more damage than the fighter, BUT the fighter gets to wear heavy armor.


People like to bring up the Fighter being able to wear heavy armor as a significant benefit. In reality it is overvalued. The thing is, the Monk dealing more damage actually helps the party kill the monster faster. The Fighter wearing heavy armor 90% of the time translates into "monster decides to attack someone else in the party and hits them" (usually someone with fewer HP than the Fighter). So the Fighter being able to wear heavy armor usually provides no benefit (and definitely not an every-round-of-combat benefit). The Dwarf Fighter at least can (usually) force their higher AC to matter 1/combat, but that is still just 1/combat, not every round like the Monk bonus.


^^^What Fiddy said +1.

I primarily play Fighter and with a high AC and HP, I am targeted at the most, once per 10 runs and the times that I am targeted, I actually taunt the DM into attacking me. They still often refuse. That also said, the Fighter re-slide is VERY useful but there needs to be something more. But I digress...

Matthew Hayward wrote: For a few years now I’ve been advocating this for monk / ranger:

If both pucks hit, the lower hit score is completely unmodified.

In one fell swoop we’d fix the current and future balance problems with these classes, which will only continue to get worse over time as every new str or melee booster benefits them more than the other classes as is.

Alternatively the fighter legendary should give fighters a way to deal double damage on every attack (say if they slide over a 15).


This is a fast simple rule which meets two criteria for working well for True Dungeon.

And I like the idea of the future Fighter Legendary creating a way to deal double damage upon hitting a certain threshold. Heck, make it 19-20. Or better yet, allow the Fighter to dual wield! I am consistently doing less damage as an almost maxed-out Fighter than the Ranger, Rogue, and Monk and that is not how it should be. But I further digress... :whistle:
Get your Character Class T-Shirts HERE! https://www.redbubble.com/people/snakeeyes0217/collections/723278-dungeon-adventure-wear

Get $10 off your first order from Trent Tokens with this code! http://i.refs.cc/RsPEAVgF

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #18

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: Sure, the Monk deals more damage than the fighter, BUT the fighter gets to wear heavy armor.


People like to bring up the Fighter being able to wear heavy armor as a significant benefit. In reality it is overvalued. The thing is, the Monk dealing more damage actually helps the party kill the monster faster. The Fighter wearing heavy armor 90% of the time translates into "monster decides to attack someone else in the party and hits them" (usually someone with fewer HP than the Fighter). So the Fighter being able to wear heavy armor usually provides no benefit (and definitely not an every-round-of-combat benefit). The Dwarf Fighter at least can (usually) force their higher AC to matter 1/combat, but that is still just 1/combat, not every round like the Monk bonus.


^^^What Fiddy said +1.

I primarily play Fighter and with a high AC and HP, I am targeted at the most, once per 10 runs and the times that I am targeted, I actually taunt the DM into attacking me. They still often refuse. That also said, the Fighter re-slide is VERY useful but there needs to be something more. But I digress...

Matthew Hayward wrote: For a few years now I’ve been advocating this for monk / ranger:

If both pucks hit, the lower hit score is completely unmodified.

In one fell swoop we’d fix the current and future balance problems with these classes, which will only continue to get worse over time as every new str or melee booster benefits them more than the other classes as is.

Alternatively the fighter legendary should give fighters a way to deal double damage on every attack (say if they slide over a 15).


This is a fast simple rule which meets two criteria for working well for True Dungeon.

And I like the idea of the future Fighter Legendary creating a way to deal double damage upon hitting a certain threshold. Heck, make it 19-20. Or better yet, allow the Fighter to dual wield! I am consistently doing less damage as an almost maxed-out Fighter than the Ranger, Rogue, and Monk and that is not how it should be. But I further digress... :whistle:


It seems incomplete to try to solve the discrepancy by beefing up the Fighter, because that would only fix the problem for one class. I think the solution Matthew and I were mentioning would be more comprehensive.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #19

Daniel White wrote: I think all the folks that have poured $$$ into Monk and melee Ranger builds would be pretty peeved by that proposal. If folks think Monk/Ranger are too OP, I would rather see something like increased monster AC. Sliding with two pucks accurately enough to hit has been intended to be the counterbalance for being able to dual-wield.


Increasing AC impacts all sliders, not just Monks and Rangers.

What I've observed from many parties is that Monks/Rangers often slide before classes that either likely won't hit anyways or that are likely to hit on almost anything. The Monks/Rangers then get bumped and hit more often than you might expect (your mileage may vary).

As for people upset with being nerfed, the Clerics seem to have survived The Great Healing Nerf of 2019. I suspect we'll see additional nerfing in the future (maybe with Monks/Rangers, maybe with other things).

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #20

Generally the downside to using 2 weapons is that they are smaller and deal less damage each, this in theory leads to dual wielders and 2 hand fighters dealing similar damage with sword and shield dealing less damage.

The fact that both weapons get the full +damage bonus and that bonus being significantly higher than weapon base damage means that in practice dual wielding has a MASSIVE damage potential over any other class purely due to the potential of double +damage bonuses.

The Charm of Shadow Shot only giving token damage on the second puck seems to support this theory.

Maybe a fair compromise would be to give each class a specific thing that triggers +damage on both weapons in certain situations, similar to Rogue's sneak attack.

Ranger - Favored Enemy (Giant, Dragon, Humanoid) deals full +melee damage on both weapons when hitting an enemy of the listed type

Monk - Flurry of Blows - twice per combat add +melee damage on both weapons slid this turn

Outside of that, if both weapons hit add the +melee to the higher number, if both land on the same number add the +melee to the higher weapon. The second weapon does base puck damage.


That would also put them in line with the other classes able to do multiple spells 1 or 2 times a combat.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #21

Mike Steele wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: Sure, the Monk deals more damage than the fighter, BUT the fighter gets to wear heavy armor.


People like to bring up the Fighter being able to wear heavy armor as a significant benefit. In reality it is overvalued. The thing is, the Monk dealing more damage actually helps the party kill the monster faster. The Fighter wearing heavy armor 90% of the time translates into "monster decides to attack someone else in the party and hits them" (usually someone with fewer HP than the Fighter). So the Fighter being able to wear heavy armor usually provides no benefit (and definitely not an every-round-of-combat benefit). The Dwarf Fighter at least can (usually) force their higher AC to matter 1/combat, but that is still just 1/combat, not every round like the Monk bonus.


^^^What Fiddy said +1.

I primarily play Fighter and with a high AC and HP, I am targeted at the most, once per 10 runs and the times that I am targeted, I actually taunt the DM into attacking me. They still often refuse. That also said, the Fighter re-slide is VERY useful but there needs to be something more. But I digress...

Matthew Hayward wrote: For a few years now I’ve been advocating this for monk / ranger:

If both pucks hit, the lower hit score is completely unmodified.

In one fell swoop we’d fix the current and future balance problems with these classes, which will only continue to get worse over time as every new str or melee booster benefits them more than the other classes as is.

Alternatively the fighter legendary should give fighters a way to deal double damage on every attack (say if they slide over a 15).


This is a fast simple rule which meets two criteria for working well for True Dungeon.

And I like the idea of the future Fighter Legendary creating a way to deal double damage upon hitting a certain threshold. Heck, make it 19-20. Or better yet, allow the Fighter to dual wield! I am consistently doing less damage as an almost maxed-out Fighter than the Ranger, Rogue, and Monk and that is not how it should be. But I further digress... :whistle:


It seems incomplete to try to solve the discrepancy by beefing up the Fighter, because that would only fix the problem for one class. I think the solution Matthew and I were mentioning would be more comprehensive.


I'm not saying beefing up the fighter will solve this problem. In fact, I quoted Matt and said,

"This is a fast simple rule which meets two criteria for working well for True Dungeon."

because I agree with...

"If both pucks hit, the lower hit score is completely unmodified."
Get your Character Class T-Shirts HERE! https://www.redbubble.com/people/snakeeyes0217/collections/723278-dungeon-adventure-wear

Get $10 off your first order from Trent Tokens with this code! http://i.refs.cc/RsPEAVgF

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #22

I see. Not about gaps between difficulty levels. Thread about altering output from 2 of 12 classes.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #23

It sounds like this proposal boils down to:

1. To-hit bonus applies to both pucks
2. Damage bonus applies to at most one puck per round

Count me in.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses 1 month 1 week ago #24

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote: Sure, the Monk deals more damage than the fighter, BUT the fighter gets to wear heavy armor.


People like to bring up the Fighter being able to wear heavy armor as a significant benefit. In reality it is overvalued. The thing is, the Monk dealing more damage actually helps the party kill the monster faster. The Fighter wearing heavy armor 90% of the time translates into "monster decides to attack someone else in the party and hits them" (usually someone with fewer HP than the Fighter). So the Fighter being able to wear heavy armor usually provides no benefit (and definitely not an every-round-of-combat benefit). The Dwarf Fighter at least can (usually) force their higher AC to matter 1/combat, but that is still just 1/combat, not every round like the Monk bonus.


^^^What Fiddy said +1.

I primarily play Fighter and with a high AC and HP, I am targeted at the most, once per 10 runs and the times that I am targeted, I actually taunt the DM into attacking me. They still often refuse. That also said, the Fighter re-slide is VERY useful but there needs to be something more. But I digress...

Matthew Hayward wrote: For a few years now I’ve been advocating this for monk / ranger:

If both pucks hit, the lower hit score is completely unmodified.

In one fell swoop we’d fix the current and future balance problems with these classes, which will only continue to get worse over time as every new str or melee booster benefits them more than the other classes as is.

Alternatively the fighter legendary should give fighters a way to deal double damage on every attack (say if they slide over a 15).


This is a fast simple rule which meets two criteria for working well for True Dungeon.

And I like the idea of the future Fighter Legendary creating a way to deal double damage upon hitting a certain threshold. Heck, make it 19-20. Or better yet, allow the Fighter to dual wield! I am consistently doing less damage as an almost maxed-out Fighter than the Ranger, Rogue, and Monk and that is not how it should be. But I further digress... :whistle:


It seems incomplete to try to solve the discrepancy by beefing up the Fighter, because that would only fix the problem for one class. I think the solution Matthew and I were mentioning would be more comprehensive.


I'm not saying beefing up the fighter will solve this problem. In fact, I quoted Matt and said,

"This is a fast simple rule which meets two criteria for working well for True Dungeon."

because I agree with...

"If both pucks hit, the lower hit score is completely unmodified."


With you 100% then. That was in essence my original proposal, which Matthew as it turns out had proposed previously. :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.234 seconds