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TOPIC: Evil outsiders

Evil outsiders 1 month 1 week ago #13

Aothos wrote: While we really don't want to be meta-gaming, this is actually a subject that needs to be addressed with all the specific bane tokens that have been coming out. There needs to be a certain way for the players to know the creature type of the monsters in question. Otherwise there are is a lot of potential damage missed and/or opportunities.

i.e.) I let a friend of mine borrow my Cleric build when he went to Origins. In one of the rooms he came across an enemy that he thought was either an undead or an evil outsider, so he asked the DM if the creature was either. The DM responded that he couldn't tell him the creature's typing, so my friend used his Turn Undead ability (since Charm of Blissward is on my build) and the DM informed him that it does nothing. At the end of the room my friend inquired why his Turn ability didn't work and the DM said that the creature was an evil outsider, not undead; to which my friend responded by pointing out my Charm of the Blissward. The DM just shrugged.


I believe this exact situation needs to be addressed by the powers that be. It feels horrible as a Cleric to use your action for a turn and your super cool Turn Undead ability for the DM to look at you and say "it does nothing." I think from a flavor stand point if a cleric ask the DM directly is this an Undead the DM should be able to answer yes or no. Since , story wise, a cleric should have enough knowledge to know if something is an undead or not it seems like this would be reasonable. The DM shouldn't blatantly identify the monster but a cleric should be able to identify an undead.

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Evil outsiders 1 month 1 week ago #14

Mike Steele wrote: I personally see no problem with identifying creature types to players. I'd guess the vast majority of True Dungeon players have no idea what types of monsters are evil outsiders (I've been a GURPS and D&D player for decades and I don't know).

It definitely doesn't seem out of bounds on a TD forum thread to discuss specifics of what types of monsters are evil outsiders, or even the general definition of evil outsiders.


The D&D definition of “outsider” is a creature whose origin is somewhere other than the Prime Material Plane. For example: demons and devils are obviously evil, angels and seraphs are good, and elementals are usually neutral.

Dragons, orcs, giants, animals, oozes, and undead are typically native to the PMP, and thus not Outsiders.

There’s never going to be a definitive, comprehensive list because new creatures are always being invented discovered.

The E* modules happen in the Abyss. By definition, any non-mundane monsters you find there are probably outsiders.

If you have the charm or holy symbol, just say you’re “turning evil outsiders” and explain yourself afterwards if the DM doesn’t get it.
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Evil outsiders 1 month 1 week ago #15

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I personally see no problem with identifying creature types to players. I'd guess the vast majority of True Dungeon players have no idea what types of monsters are evil outsiders (I've been a GURPS and D&D player for decades and I don't know).

It definitely doesn't seem out of bounds on a TD forum thread to discuss specifics of what types of monsters are evil outsiders, or even the general definition of evil outsiders.


The D&D definition of “outsider” is a creature whose origin is somewhere other than the Prime Material Plane. For example: demons and devils are obviously evil, angels and seraphs are good, and elementals are usually neutral.

Dragons, orcs, giants, animals, oozes, and undead are typically native to the PMP, and thus not Outsiders.

There’s never going to be a definitive, comprehensive list because new creatures are always being invented discovered.

The E* modules happen in the Abyss. By definition, any non-mundane monsters you find there are probably outsiders.

If you have the charm or holy symbol, just say you’re “turning evil outsiders” and explain yourself afterwards if the DM doesn’t get it.


Thanks, Brad, that's great info. I think if that level of info were somehow conveyed to True Dungeon players before or during their runs, it might really enhance their enjoyment of the Dungeons. :)

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Evil outsiders 1 month 1 week ago #16

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I personally see no problem with identifying creature types to players. I'd guess the vast majority of True Dungeon players have no idea what types of monsters are evil outsiders (I've been a GURPS and D&D player for decades and I don't know).

It definitely doesn't seem out of bounds on a TD forum thread to discuss specifics of what types of monsters are evil outsiders, or even the general definition of evil outsiders.


The D&D definition of “outsider” is a creature whose origin is somewhere other than the Prime Material Plane. For example: demons and devils are obviously evil, angels and seraphs are good, and elementals are usually neutral.

Dragons, orcs, giants, animals, oozes, and undead are typically native to the PMP, and thus not Outsiders.

There’s never going to be a definitive, comprehensive list because new creatures are always being invented discovered.

The E* modules happen in the Abyss. By definition, any non-mundane monsters you find there are probably outsiders.

If you have the charm or holy symbol, just say you’re “turning evil outsiders” and explain yourself afterwards if the DM doesn’t get it.


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Evil outsiders 1 month 1 week ago #17

I know there will always be odd situations but I feel like the Dm should be given a quick list of tokens to be aware of for their room.
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Evil outsiders 1 month 1 week ago #18

Jeremy wrote:

Aothos wrote: While we really don't want to be meta-gaming, this is actually a subject that needs to be addressed with all the specific bane tokens that have been coming out. There needs to be a certain way for the players to know the creature type of the monsters in question. Otherwise there are is a lot of potential damage missed and/or opportunities.

i.e.) I let a friend of mine borrow my Cleric build when he went to Origins. In one of the rooms he came across an enemy that he thought was either an undead or an evil outsider, so he asked the DM if the creature was either. The DM responded that he couldn't tell him the creature's typing, so my friend used his Turn Undead ability (since Charm of Blissward is on my build) and the DM informed him that it does nothing. At the end of the room my friend inquired why his Turn ability didn't work and the DM said that the creature was an evil outsider, not undead; to which my friend responded by pointing out my Charm of the Blissward. The DM just shrugged.


I believe this exact situation needs to be addressed by the powers that be. It feels horrible as a Cleric to use your action for a turn and your super cool Turn Undead ability for the DM to look at you and say "it does nothing." I think from a flavor stand point if a cleric ask the DM directly is this an Undead the DM should be able to answer yes or no. Since , story wise, a cleric should have enough knowledge to know if something is an undead or not it seems like this would be reasonable. The DM shouldn't blatantly identify the monster but a cleric should be able to identify an undead.


On NORMAL, maybe? At any other level, I disagree. Ineffective actions and spells are frustrating but it's all part of the puzzle of figuring out how to defeat an enemy in the dungeon.

It's also part of the fun of becoming an expert of a specific class. It's not just about showing up to class, but also doing the homework.

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Evil outsiders 1 month 1 week ago #19

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

Aothos wrote: While we really don't want to be meta-gaming, this is actually a subject that needs to be addressed with all the specific bane tokens that have been coming out. There needs to be a certain way for the players to know the creature type of the monsters in question. Otherwise there are is a lot of potential damage missed and/or opportunities.

i.e.) I let a friend of mine borrow my Cleric build when he went to Origins. In one of the rooms he came across an enemy that he thought was either an undead or an evil outsider, so he asked the DM if the creature was either. The DM responded that he couldn't tell him the creature's typing, so my friend used his Turn Undead ability (since Charm of Blissward is on my build) and the DM informed him that it does nothing. At the end of the room my friend inquired why his Turn ability didn't work and the DM said that the creature was an evil outsider, not undead; to which my friend responded by pointing out my Charm of the Blissward. The DM just shrugged.


I believe this exact situation needs to be addressed by the powers that be. It feels horrible as a Cleric to use your action for a turn and your super cool Turn Undead ability for the DM to look at you and say "it does nothing." I think from a flavor stand point if a cleric ask the DM directly is this an Undead the DM should be able to answer yes or no. Since , story wise, a cleric should have enough knowledge to know if something is an undead or not it seems like this would be reasonable. The DM shouldn't blatantly identify the monster but a cleric should be able to identify an undead.


On NORMAL, maybe? At any other level, I disagree. Ineffective actions and spells are frustrating but it's all part of the puzzle of figuring out how to defeat an enemy in the dungeon.

It's also part of the fun of becoming an expert of a specific class. It's not just about showing up to class, but also doing the homework.


I agree with you 100%, he was on hardcore and that happens from time to time, but where was the study guide for that monster typing?

And don't you think a cleric would be able to identify the forces of evil by type having devoted his life to defeating them? Plus he had the charm to effect both. This isn't an issue of Metagaming, this is more of a communication issue I think. We need a way to either let the DM know that certain tokens are being carried or let the players know a certain monster typing without slowing down the room more.

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Last edit: by Aothos.

Evil outsiders 1 month 1 week ago #20

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I personally see no problem with identifying creature types to players. I'd guess the vast majority of True Dungeon players have no idea what types of monsters are evil outsiders (I've been a GURPS and D&D player for decades and I don't know).

It definitely doesn't seem out of bounds on a TD forum thread to discuss specifics of what types of monsters are evil outsiders, or even the general definition of evil outsiders.


The D&D definition of “outsider” is a creature whose origin is somewhere other than the Prime Material Plane. For example: demons and devils are obviously evil, angels and seraphs are good, and elementals are usually neutral.

Dragons, orcs, giants, animals, oozes, and undead are typically native to the PMP, and thus not Outsiders.

There’s never going to be a definitive, comprehensive list because new creatures are always being invented discovered.

The E* modules happen in the Abyss. By definition, any non-mundane monsters you find there are probably outsiders.

If you have the charm or holy symbol, just say you’re “turning evil outsiders” and explain yourself afterwards if the DM doesn’t get it.

I thought "Outsider" was tied to the plane the being originated from.

Example, a Demon in the Prime Material Plane is an Outsider. However, a Demon in the Abyss is not an outsider - the players that followed the demon to the abyss would be Outsiders in the Abyss.

Thus, the Holy Avenger could insta kill the Demon in the Prime Material Plane, but would never insta kill the Demon in the Abyss.

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Evil outsiders 1 month 1 week ago #21

Adam Guay wrote: I know there will always be odd situations but I feel like the Dm should be given a quick list of tokens to be aware of for their room.


We are. Each module has a "tokens of interest" section that lists all the relevant tokens that the authors could think of. Sometimes something gets missed, but the Charm of Blissward was mentioned in my room's module, because the creature was an evil outsider.

Aothos wrote: i.e.) I let a friend of mine borrow my Cleric build when he went to Origins. In one of the rooms he came across an enemy that he thought was either an undead or an evil outsider, so he asked the DM if the creature was either. The DM responded that he couldn't tell him the creature's typing, so my friend used his Turn Undead ability (since Charm of Blissward is on my build) and the DM informed him that it does nothing. At the end of the room my friend inquired why his Turn ability didn't work and the DM said that the creature was an evil outsider, not undead; to which my friend responded by pointing out my Charm of the Blissward. The DM just shrugged.


I don't remember something like that happening in my room at Origins, but on the off chance I was the DM and just forgot, I'm sorry.

Jeremy wrote: I think from a flavor stand point if a cleric ask the DM directly is this an Undead the DM should be able to answer yes or no. Since , story wise, a cleric should have enough knowledge to know if something is an undead or not it seems like this would be reasonable. The DM shouldn't blatantly identify the monster but a cleric should be able to identify an undead.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: On NORMAL, maybe? At any other level, I disagree. Ineffective actions and spells are frustrating but it's all part of the puzzle of figuring out how to defeat an enemy in the dungeon.

It's also part of the fun of becoming an expert of a specific class. It's not just about showing up to class, but also doing the homework.


I agree with both of these. My monster at Origins was an evil outsider, but I can see how the prop could easily be mistaken for undead. Whenever a cleric in a normal group tried to use turn undead, I would tell them that it was not undead. If they then asked if their fancy charm helped, then I'd give them the beads. I don't remember any hardcore/nightmare clerics trying before confirming, but if they had, I would have let them try, then told them that nothing happens, because it's not undead.

Monster stats are supposed to be secret, but there are some circumstances where players might need to know the monster's type. The question "what type of monster is it" will get a non-technical answer of "it's an ogre mage" or "it's a zombie," but the cleric asking "is it undead?" will always get a yes or no, regardless of difficulty. Likewise, a cleric asking "I have a charm of blissward, is it an evil outsider?" will also get a yes or no.

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Last edit: by Andrew Knoll.

Evil outsiders 1 month 1 week ago #22

Endgame wrote: I thought "Outsider" was tied to the plane the being originated from.

Example, a Demon in the Prime Material Plane is an Outsider. However, a Demon in the Abyss is not an outsider - the players that followed the demon to the abyss would be Outsiders in the Abyss.

Thus, the Holy Avenger could insta kill the Demon in the Prime Material Plane, but would never insta kill the Demon in the Abyss.


Sort of, but not exactly. At least in 3.5 (I can't speak to other editions offhand without book diving) the Outsider type was a keyword creature type that referred to beings composed of the essence of planes other than the material plane, who didn't have a dual nature regarding soul and body (which is their explanation for spells like raise dead and such not working on outsiders- there was no soul released to be returned to their body after death). I guess it is important to note that they differentiate between "I was born on this plane" and "I am composed of the essence of this plane" when talking about the Outsider creature type.

Ultimately, where you are standing doesn't change your base creature type. So in your example, a demon in the material plane is an Outsider and thus immune to spells like "hold person", yet it still retains the Outsider creature type in the abyss and thus is still immune to the "hold person" spell. Additionally, a regular humanoid still gets effected by the "hold person" spell regardless of whether they are in the abyss or material plane, since their creature type doesn't change.

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Evil outsiders 1 month 1 week ago #23

Speaking as a player, not an employee. (This is not an official... thing.)

I find I have better results with DMs if I ask technical questions in character. For example, instead of directly asking the DM if the monster is undead, say something along the lines of, "Using my many seasons of undead hunting as a guide, does this creature exhibit any of the tell-tale signs of undeath?"

I'm not saying this works every time with every DM, but maybe give it a try. Ya nevah know... 🤷‍♂️
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections/suggestions in this thread .
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