TOPIC: Discussion of Class Selection Process

I like the idea of a time cutoff. It's understandable, and while might seem arbitrary to an absolute first time player, within a few minutes of observing what the coaches actually have to do the reason probably would sink in.

That said, I also agree with the people that have pointed out the occurrence of problems is fairly low and would be be indifferent between a time cutoff and no change.

Speaking as a coach, this rarely comes up and when it does people are normally good about revolving it amongst themselves so I would recommend against any major changes in search of problems.

Speaking as myself I would actually like to see that class rule extended such that the higher level player always has first dibs as that would reduce ties, roll of on matched level. At least until stats are recorded, once stats are recorded I'm ok with telling people it's to late to pull rank.

Further I know its something of an unpopular oppinian but IMO established players are worth way more than newbies. A cursory search of the all players list shows us most people do not become repeat players. IMO we should be courting the ones that do with behaviors that encourage token buying and repeat patronage (like class selection) rather than repeatedly asking them to take one for the team and think of the newbies.

Picc wrote: Speaking as a coach, this rarely comes up and when it does people are normally good about revolving it amongst themselves so I would recommend against any major changes in search of problems.

Speaking as myself I would actually like to see that class rule extended such that the higher level player always has first dibs as that would reduce ties, roll of on matched level. At least until stats are recorded, once stats are recorded I'm ok with telling people it's to late to pull rank.

Further I know its something of an unpopular oppinian but IMO established players are worth way more than newbies. A cursory search of the all players list shows us most people do not become repeat players. IMO we should be courting the ones that do with behaviors that encourage token buying and repeat patronage (like class selection) rather than repeatedly asking them to take one for the team and think of the newbies.

That is a fallacy about repeat players. Someone may be a repeat player but just never enter their xp. Many of my group are that way. They haven’t had xp added since in changed to player entered. They don’t care about it and I am willing to bet they aren’t the only ones.

jedibcg wrote:

Picc wrote: Speaking as a coach, this rarely comes up and when it does people are normally good about revolving it amongst themselves so I would recommend against any major changes in search of problems.

Speaking as myself I would actually like to see that class rule extended such that the higher level player always has first dibs as that would reduce ties, roll of on matched level. At least until stats are recorded, once stats are recorded I'm ok with telling people it's to late to pull rank.

Further I know its something of an unpopular oppinian but IMO established players are worth way more than newbies. A cursory search of the all players list shows us most people do not become repeat players. IMO we should be courting the ones that do with behaviors that encourage token buying and repeat patronage (like class selection) rather than repeatedly asking them to take one for the team and think of the newbies.

That is a fallacy about repeat players. Someone may be a repeat player but just never enter their xp. Many of my group are that way. They haven’t had xp added since in changed to player entered. They don’t care about it and I am willing to bet they aren’t the only ones.

I can only comment on the percentage of the population that cares enough to enter their xp. That said it lines up anecdotally with what I hear people saying in coaching. There's a lot of "it's my first time" and "I've been doing this for years now".

But let's assume I'm wrong for the moment, at the least policies aimed at retention rather then new business wouldnt hurt the playerbase as they would incentivize people to stay. Hopefully long enough to hit that sweet spot a few years in where they would be invested enough to care about xp and order some tokens.

I'm not saying we start being unfriendly to newbies tomorrow, only that so long as TD is selling out every year that we dont need to court new business so aggressively.

IMO it's more valuable to TD to find the next you then it is to get 10 newbies to try. Because I'm willing to bet, at least initially, you were a large part of what kept the rest of your group attending every year.

actually if you are correct and it lots of new people that aren’t being retained then we do need to keep new players happy. we will always need to replace anyone that does not come back next year. though existing players can pick up the slack new players will always be need if last years new players don’t return.

If a new player has a bad experience on their first run they are less likely to ever play again than someone that has had multiple good experiences.

Edward Deangelis wrote: I don't know what a good solution to this would be. And I don't think my thoughts would really make things easier.
But I am for people of higher exp level getting the class they want.
Yeah someone could be the same level. But the higher you go in levels the less chance that will happen. I say this because I have indeed had issues where I've been stuck with a younger player wanting the Ranger Class. And I have had to pull rank of them. Or in one case since he was 3rd level, I had to argue with this person to let me keep the class because I had way better tokens.
I know some people might think that sucks. But I built this one class over many years and have thousands of dollars invested into the tokens for it. Yes, I could play something else and kinda shift some of the tokens over. But it would not be nearly as good.
I hate to say "I spent more money and time, so I get what I want." But yeah, it kinda is like that. I don't have multiple builds I can just switch to. So if I am the best equipped for the class I should get that class.

Some of my best and worst runs have been pick up groups. What frustrates me as both a coach and player is seeing vets come into a pug and pull the I'm only geared for 1 class cry. Odds are on pugs it's normal anyways, if you're geared for nightmare you can play anything on normal.

People tend to forget it's not prearranged. I prefery dwarf but for hardcore and below I'll play anything, granted I look at is as I have my greedy and I run enough that I'll play my main again later. If you want to make sure you're playing class x then get with folks and buy out or join a forum run. Enough folks around here to be glad to do so to get their class/difficulty.

I like the option of on time/when coach comes in get class chosen, late gets handed from what's left.

Dislike anything else that smells like pay to win. I'm indifferent to highest player XP chooses but I'm relatively high enough that I'll likely benefit from that proposed rule.

Matt wrote:
Some of my best and worst runs have been pick up groups. What frustrates me as both a coach and player is seeing vets come into a pug and pull the I'm only geared for 1 class cry. Odds are on pugs it's normal anyways, if you're geared for nightmare you can play anything on normal.

People tend to forget it's not prearranged. I prefer dwarf but for hardcore and below I'll play anything, granted I look at is as I have my greedy and I run enough that I'll play my main again later. If you want to make sure you're playing class x then get with folks and buy out or join a forum run. Enough folks around here to be glad to do so to get their class/difficulty.

Agreed. Team Yeti has two types of runs: Organized on the Forum, and PUG. If it's a PUG group, our attitude is to assist new/beginning players. These folks either have their brand-spankin-new ten-pack, or a small collection in a plastic bag. Their class choices are either "I have some interesting stuff for a cleric,' or "I have no idea what I'm doing." Assisting them in picking a class is a simple matter of finding their interest and explaining the slight difference between sliders and memorizers.

Never once have I seen any Yeti pulling rank to get a class. As Matt said, anyone equipped for nightmare can build and function at a competitive level to fit into a PUG. Consider it practice: If you can't work class selection out in the coaches' room, how you gonna handle Puzzle Room #2?

Whenever I remember that and help establish communications within the group, we have a great time. I'm an old fart and fully believe that time is too short, and I paid too much to pout about what class I played - the joy was in participating.

Back on my first run, me and my friends had done some research and purchased a few tokens for the classes we were interested in. When we arrived at the designated time, the 'exalted' (had finished one run) players were already there and had chosen our classes. We were disappointed and confused, a very bad start. There was no cooperation between the two groups throughout the very unsuccessful run. I remember that feeling every time I walk into the coaches' room for a PUG.

If you're a veteran player and getting your chosen class is more important than helping True Dungeon stay healthy, then I ask you to take a step back and think it through. Your blood pressure will thank you!

Not to mention, taking your NM build on a normal run is just not fun. One-shotting the monster and standing around for 11 minutes might make you feel mighty, but you’re ruining the game for any newbies or low-level players.

To Picc’s point, I wonder how many players just play once because they went on a run like that and saw it as a boring waste of time and money.

I’d like to rewrite my suggested rule: characters in a PUG are chosen in reverse-XP order. Newbies first, Mardi Gras (purple and orange) players last. The theory is that person with the biggest collection has the most flexibility.

If you want to be assured of playing your favorite oranged-out class, organize a run or join someone else’s. I haven’t bought tickets through RUBI in years, so that’s one less headache, and there is zero coaching room drama, which I like a lot.

The only time we really had an issue with class selection was in True Heroes, and I wish there had been a tie breaking option like a die roll formalized.

The Super-Heroes were seen as pretty unbalanced, with Thor being strongest and Wasp being weakest. Several people wanted to play Thor, and one person was especially insistent. When I suggested the people who wanted Thor could roll off for it, he refused and said "I paid real money for this ticket" and insisted on Thor. Which we found amusing, did he think the rest of us paid with fake money?

We let him play Thor to avoid a conflict, and one of my friends volunteered to play Wasp, the class nobody wanted.

He ended up being really terrible at the game, Thor never landed an attack on an opponent. And, there were several scenarios designed just for the Wasp, so he had more impact on the game, and fun playing, than anyone. So the lesson from that is that any class can help the group, even if viewed as a less powerful one.

Given that experience, I'd like the group to decide among themselves on classes with no player level advantages, I'd get rid of the bonus for 3rd level or higher picks first bonus. And I'd recommend using die rolls to resolve any situations where multiple people want the same class. And I would have some cut off point where anyone arriving after that had to choose from the remaining classes.

On a side note, I'd love to see something like True Heroes return, even if it is generic hero types instead of licensed characters. It could have it's own token sets instead of sharing with True Dungeon, letting everyone start on the ground floor (and giving TD another revenue source) Maybe only give tokens as in game rewards for a year or two to see if it's popular enough to continue. Maybe either combine XP with TD like the previous ones, or have it separate.

Maybe it could take the place if the "best of" adventure. There are probably logistics reasons why it wouldn't work, but it would be great if it did, even on a small scale.

jedibcg wrote: actually if you are correct and it lots of new people that aren’t being retained then we do need to keep new players happy. we will always need to replace anyone that does not come back next year. though existing players can pick up the slack new players will always be need if last years new players don’t return.

If a new player has a bad experience on their first run they are less likely to ever play again than someone that has had multiple good experiences.

Please remember someone who has a bad experience is going to tell at least 10 people but someone who has a good time is only going to tell 1-2 people. A business statistic is that every business loses 20% of their customers every year and even if TD has superior retention powers and only loses 10% they still need to replace those hard core tokenholics that move on for any reason.

Bob Chasan wrote: Please remember someone who has a bad experience is going to tell at least 10 people but someone who has a good time is only going to tell 1-2 people. A business statistic is that every business loses 20% of their customers every year and even if TD has superior retention powers and only loses 10% they still need to replace those hard core tokenholics that move on for any reason.

Or replace those new people. Again it is easier to keep a hard core tokenholic happy if they have 1 bad experience that a new person whose only experience is bad. If it is a new person that leave or a hard core tokenholic they need to be replaced. That replacement is most likely going to be a new person.

jedibcg wrote: actually if you are correct and it lots of new people that aren’t being retained then we do need to keep new players happy. we will always need to replace anyone that does not come back next year. though existing players can pick up the slack new players will always be need if last years new players don’t return.

If a new player has a bad experience on their first run they are less likely to ever play again than someone that has had multiple good experiences.

How do you account for the people who play once, then say something like "it was fun but meh it was probably just a one time thing" because I suspect that's the majority of people. Even if they have a great time they are just not going to be repeat customers.

I fully grant you we need a consistent supply of new players, I just also maintain that we probably have more of that then we need already, and thats not likely to change anytime soon. So focusing exclusively on new player experience (in some cases) at the expense of established player experience might not be the best use of our energy.

If it were me I would be more focused on a casino like model, making sure that the whales are happy and that TD has a reputation for being the kind of event where you want to become a vet because they take care you. IMO that will do more to drive the revenue and improve the event for everyone in the long run anyway.

jedibcg wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: Please remember someone who has a bad experience is going to tell at least 10 people but someone who has a good time is only going to tell 1-2 people. A business statistic is that every business loses 20% of their customers every year and even if TD has superior retention powers and only loses 10% they still need to replace those hard core tokenholics that move on for any reason.

Or replace those new people. Again it is easier to keep a hard core tokenholic happy if they have 1 bad experience that a new person whose only experience is bad. If it is a new person that leave or a hard core tokenholic they need to be replaced. That replacement is most likely going to be a new person.

Ya, but we would have to loose and replace a lot of one or two run per year players to equal the revenue hit we would take loosing a single patron level buyer. And doing stuff like asking them to give up the classes they've spent thousands building for has a really good chance of making them reconsider their purchases.