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TOPIC: Token Point System

Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #1

Introduction:

In another thread I suggested assigning points to tokens as a way of encouraging (but not requiring) players to challenge themselves to use different token builds and as perhaps an alternate way of earning XP. This is a massive post explaining the idea and if you are interested in jumping to the preliminary token point assignments for the 2018 tokens just look at the attachment.

Purpose:

What is the point system trying to accomplish? In a traditional RPG, XP is awarded for the difficulty of the challenge overcome, whether that be winning combat, solving a puzzle, or using a skill. TD approximates that system by awarding XP based on rooms entered, as well as giving an extra 1,000 XP to start in hardcore, nightmare, and epic (although not distinguishing between those levels). That system has the advantage of being relatively easy to administer (although giving more XP for nightmare compared to hardcore, and epic compared to nightmare would certainly be possible without increasing the administrative burden).

Like a traditional RPG, TD doesn’t really care just how a player gets through a room for XP purposes. If a player chooses to play normal with all legendary, transmuted, and ultra rare tokens, and makes it to all the rooms (of course), that player gets the same XP as a player that accomplishes the same using one sealed 10 pack of tokens. Unlike a traditional RPG, TD for practical reasons doesn’t assign a specific XP value to each monster or puzzle, instead giving a fixed amount per room. But the per room XP is a fair approximation assuming that each monster and puzzle is relatively equal in difficulty, although again it would be possible to give more points per room at higher levels (hardcore, nightmare, epic) and to distinguish between those levels.

So how to devise a system that distinguishes between the players in XP without requiring TD to do the impractical and assigning each puzzle/monster a specific XP value? That depends on what we are trying to establish. Are we trying to establish which character is the strongest or which player is the strongest? What do I mean by that? To go back to the example, the character with the legendary, transmuted, and ultra rare tokens is by far the stronger character than the character that has only the sealed 10 pack of tokens. But which player is better? It might be the player with the better tokens, but it might not. And being the better player is a function of a few factors, among them: the ability to solve puzzles, the ability to slide in combat, the ability to pass skill tests, and the ability to pick an optimal token selection. For the first three abilities, I am talking about the player’s ability independent of the character card and the tokens (we’ll get to those).

Up front, I’m not trying to suggest that there is something wrong with preferring the better character to the better player, or vice versa. But if you want to want to measure the strongest character, the current XP system does a fair job, although I would still recommend giving more XP to nightmare and epic, to distinguish them from hardcore (and each other). Nor do I want to set up a type of system where players are prevented from using their best tokens in certain levels such as normal. Instead, I am trying to create a point system that would allows players to challenge themselves to measure the difficulty of the accomplishment correcting for token strength. Ideally, I think it would be a system that could be used to measure XP (or at least give bonus XP) to recognize progress through a dungeon with lesser strength tokens. To accomplish these goals, the system must be as accurate as possible in assigning points while being practical enough to administer.

Measuring Points:

If we want to assign points to determine the better player (if you prefer bigger challenge), we need to determine the value of each token. But before getting to that point, do we consider the character card? If we do, do we simply consider whether the character is 4th level or 5th level? If so, do we consider it strictly for the effect of the level on individual tokens, or for the effect of the character card on the base stats? For the effect on individual tokens, do we have a “slash” point system that assigns different point values to certain tokens depending the character level for those tokens affected by the character level? This would be more accurate but would add some administrative burden. Do we for convenience sake assume 4th level or 5th level?

And now to layer controversy on top, do we consider the character cards themselves? That is, do we consider that each character card has different base statistics in effect considering the relative strength of each character class? For simplicity, I have assumed 4th level characters in determining the value of a token and I have not valued the base value of each character card. But I seek feedback on whether a “slash” token point level for 4th and 5th level characters should be used and whether a base level point value for each character class should be created. I don’t think implementing these options would be too difficult but the choice between using them or not depends on whether a player wants to compare the overall strength of the character (including tokens) versus the strength of the tokens by themselves.

Regardless of whether the character card is considered, in whole or in part, how do we compare tokens (or cards). The wide range of tokens (and character abilities) makes comparison difficult, and for every general rule that is devised, there are certain situations requiring exceptions (and often exceptions to the exceptions). To provide a starting point, we need to find a common way to measure how much (or how little) each token contributes to the goal of making it through a room, and ultimately the entire dungeon, alive. Increasing the difficulty level is the fact that dungeons contain puzzle rooms and combat rooms (and sometimes rooms with both). Tokens that may be very helpful with combat may be worthless with puzzles and vice versa. But let’s start with combat which is, in some ways, the easier of the two.

For combat, success is a function of causing damage to the monsters and avoiding damage to the character. Sometimes the effect is direct, such as a token with +1 HP damage or reducing +1 HP damage. Some are indirect, such as “To Hit” or AC which don’t directly cause or mitigate damage, but cause or prevent taking damage in the first place. So, looking at combat, each token can be measured by its contribution to causing damage or preventing damage, whether direct or indirect. So for many tokens, we can simply convert (in a manner discussed later) its ability to cause damage or prevent damage into HPs and use that as the point measurement.

For puzzles (and for some combat) the measurement is challenging. What about a token that lets you see an invisible monster? If you are in combat with an invisible monster, that ability has great value. Otherwise, that ability has no additional value. Similarly, with a puzzle, if there was something invisible in the room, the ability has great value, otherwise it doesn’t. We need some way to value tokens that have conditional abilities (whether, for example, it reveals the invisible, or for another example a token that does extra damage but only in certain situations (for example +1 damage in bliss). This leads us to the next topic which is the level of player knowledge and its effect on measuring token values.

Level of Knowledge:

I think everyone, or at least most people, would agree that points should be assigned under the assumption that the players know the general universe of TD. By that I mean the rules and the general types of monsters/situations/puzzles that may be encountered. Where it gets more difficult is what level of specific knowledge do we assume that players have? Do we assume that they know the general theme of the dungeon and what hints can be gleaned from the types of tokens issued that year? For example, without playing the N1-N3 dungeons this year, it was a fair assumption that bliss was somehow involved. Do we go further, and assume that a player has played the specific dungeon, and therefore knows the specific monsters/situations/puzzles that will be faced?

You may be asking why any of that matters in assigning points to each token. Let’s say we assume that the player has knowledge of the general universe of TD but not of the year’s theme or the specifics of the dungeon. In that situation, what would be the value of a token that, for example, gives a bonus in bliss? From general knowledge, that bonus might be helpful if bliss is part of the dungeon, but it’s possible that the bonus doesn’t come into play at all. In a dungeon with bliss, the token is more valuable than otherwise. In assigning points, we could simply count the bonus as always applying, but that would overvalue the token in most situations, and would result in a situation where that token has as much value as a token with the same bonus, for example a damage bonus, that generally applies rather than only to the bliss. We could treat it as never applying, but that results in a situation in which a token with the bliss bonus is undervalued, for example two tokens that each give +1 damage, but one token gives an additional bonus involving the bliss. Neither assuming the bonus always applies nor never applies seems satisfactory; a point value in the middle of the two assumptions is warranted.

But where between the two assumptions is appropriate? If we assume only general knowledge and not at least knowledge of the theme, how often would the bliss bonus come into play? If a player doesn’t know the theme and is predicting how useful the bliss bonus would be, the answer would be “not much.” Of all the dungeons that have been in TD (or could be created in the future), the player with no knowledge of the theme would believe (and rightly so), that the bliss token would rarely be helpful. So, in assigning the points to that token, it would get a small bump above the same token without the bliss bonus.

But what if we assume the player has a knowledge of the theme of the dungeon, perhaps from the description of the dungeon that is available from TD, and from looking at the tokens for the year? In this situation, the player might reasonably assume that bliss will somehow be involved. In that case, the player values the token with the bliss bonus higher than the player otherwise would, because the odds of bliss being involved have increased.

Now take it a step further. The player has played the dungeon in question and knows for certain whether bliss is involved and, in fact, how much it is involved. In this situation, the value of the bonus is known with precision.

So now for a token point “game” decision. For ease of preliminary design, I think it easiest to assume general TD knowledge but not theme or specific dungeon knowledge. I think it impractical to assume that the players know the specifics of a dungeon. One practical reason to not assume specific knowledge is that the person assigning points wouldn’t know the details of the dungeon ahead of time, and players would need to know the points before playing. But let’s assume that Jeff Martin were to whisper all the dungeon details to the person assigning the points before anyone plays the dungeon? Would we want the points to reflect that knowledge? I say no because otherwise the point assignments would make it too easy for a player to discern what challenges await. After all, if a bliss token is given an unusually high or low point value, that would indicate the amount that bliss is involved in the dungeon.

I think that assuming knowledge of the theme is reasonable but if the theme is considered, do the points assigned to a token change from year to year as the theme changes? On the one hand, changing the points would result in a more accurate assessment of the token’s value in that year. The downside would be that the token point values would need to be revisited each year (beyond an annual review to see if some point totals have been demonstrated to be too low or too high in general). For some bonuses, for example bliss bonuses, this might result in a large swing in point totals from one year to another. For other common bonuses, such as a poison bonus, there may be little or no variation from year to year. This is a question that has no easy answer, but feedback would be appreciated.

Dungeon Characteristics:

Assume for the moment we can convert each token’s value as a function of causing damage and preventing damage (later I’ll explain how I tried to make this a reality). How much is that worth? For example, looking at a club token, if we average the damage wheel, assume the club on average causes 5 points of damage. Is the club worth 5 points? Not necessarily because it depends on the characteristics of the dungeon. What do I mean by that? The short answer is that it depends on how often the club will be useful in the dungeon. For example, if the club is used only once (assume it hits and causes 5 damage), it may be fair to assign it 5 points. But what if, on average, it will be used 10 times? Then it may be fair to assign it 50 points. For the reasons I discussed in the “Level of Knowledge” section, I don’t think it appropriate/practical to assume knowledge of a specific dungeon. And for this purpose, I don’t think knowledge of the theme would really help in determining how often the club would be used. But in using general TD knowledge, we know that there are 7 rooms per dungeon. But we also know that not every room in the dungeon has combat. I think it fair to assume that each dungeon has 3 or 4 rooms of combat. Ahhh, you say, but each room with combat is not the same. And you are right. Some combat ends after 1 round, some lasts multiple rounds. For simplicity, and without data on how long an average combat lasts, I’ve used an average of 2 rounds per combat. Multiplying that by an average of 3.5 rooms of combat per dungeon leads to 7 uses of the club (to use our example). So whatever damage the club causes on average is multiplied by 7 to assign a point value to the club, in this case a total of 35 points. As an aside, like the damage wheel itself, if a bonus is already included in the wheel, I don’t add an additional bonus as the damage is already baked into the wheel itself. And I’ll discuss below special situations when the item does not have unlimited use (such as an item limited to 1 use per room or per dungeon).

I’ll discuss assigning point values regarding tokens that may help with puzzles (or both combat and puzzles) about the specific characteristic of the token at issue.

Assigning Points to Tokens

With all that background in mind, here is the way points have been (preliminarily) assigned based on the types of effect a token may have. Note that unless otherwise stated, a token with multiple effects is given points for each effect as described below (that is, point effect on token is cumulative).

AC --- Each +1 (-1) of AC is worth 10 (-10) points. Why 10 (-10) points? Each +1 (-1) in AC means that each time a character is attacked, a +1 (-1) is applied. As has been explained, I have assumed 7 combat rounds per dungeon (3.5 rooms of combat by 2 rounds of combat/room). So, on average the +1 (-1) comes into play 7 times per dungeon. But what is that worth? Since the DM is rolling a D20 for each attack, there is a 1 in 18 chance that a hit would turn into a miss because of the +1 or vice versa due to a -1. Why 1 in 18? Remember that a natural 1 is always a miss and a natural 20 is always a hit. Those results aren’t altered by the +1 (-1) AC. But on a roll of anything from 2 through 19, the AC comes into play. Most of the time the modifier won’t matter. For example, AC of 10, DM rolls 17, it’s a hit regardless of the modifier. Similarly, AC of 10, DM rolls a 5, modifier has no effect. But if the DM rolls exactly the base AC, for example AC of 10 DM rolls a 10, the +1 modifier causes a miss (or turn it around AC of 10, DM rolls a 9, modifier turns a miss into a hit). At the risk of going into too much detail (wait, we didn’t pass that point long ago?), there is a 94.4% (17/18) chance that the modifier has no effect on one round of combat. But over 7 combats there is only 67.0% chance that the modifier never comes into play or, put another way, there is a 33.0% chance per dungeon that the modifier will come into play at least once. If it does, then there is a miss (hit) that wouldn’t have happened but for the modifier and that hit will cause damage. I’ve assumed 30 points of damage for the hit/miss so a 1/3 of that is 10 points of damage hence 10 points. That assumption may seem high but given that the average number of rounds of combat is probably higher than two, and the combats in which multiple rounds occur with monsters that cause more damage, I don’t think it’s too far off. Again, data (or at least someone more experienced with TD than I) might be able to suggest a more accurate amount of damage caused. Feedback on that point would be appreciated. Exception: If an item affects AC for only one room, point value is 2.5 points (-2.5 points) per +1 (-1) rounded up (down).

HP – Each +1 (-1) of HP that is limited to one room is worth 1 (-1) point. Each +1 (-1) unlimited is worth 7 (-7) points. Each +1 (-1) of HP that is one use is 1 (-1) HP. For example, potion heals 5 HP is worth 5 points since it is one use. Another example is a token that gives +1 HP overall. This is worth 7 points under the assumption that the character could be healed to higher amount at end of each room. Practically this may not happen, but it seems a fair approximation of a “permanent” HP increase versus a one-time use.

Saves – Each +1 (-1) of “permanent” Save bonus is 5 (-5) points. One use is +1 (-1) points. Like AC, the bonus will only come into play on a certain roll of the D20. Unlike AC, a save bonus probably won’t happen as frequently as the number of combat rounds per dungeon. It makes sense to award fewer points as a result. Feedback is needed as to how often a save roll takes place and further how often a save roll might come into play per dungeon. Further feedback also needed on how much damage is typically caused by a failed save.

Each +1 (-1) To Hit bonus is 10 (-10) points. See the discussion about AC for theories on this point total.

Each +1 (-1) of Stat bonus is 1 (-1) points. Note that this is independent of the point change caused by increases/decreases that the stat change causes to other stats. For example, increase in Constitution increases Fortitude and HP which in turn adds points for those categories. Assumption is that all secondary stat bonuses apply. For example, an increase in Constitution is assumed to cause the increase to HP even though its possible in certain situations that it would not. Assumption about the assumption is that players know the character card and will choose this type of token in situations where the increase in the stat would cause the increase in, for example, HP. If it is decided to take the base character card into account this assumption could be changed although it might still be complicated by multiple tokens affecting the same base stat.

Each “positive” (“negative”) special effect on that damage/HP/skill check effects is 1 point/common, 2 points/uncommon, 3 points/rare, 4 points/ultra rare, 5 points/transmuted-enhanced, 6 points/transmuted, 7 points/transmuted-relic, 8 points/legendary (-1 through -8 for “negative”). This is just an assumption that the higher the level of token the more helpful (unhelpful) the special effect will be. An example of a special effect is a token that removes movement penalties. Exception: Token that has special effect of allowing second attack/spell/etc. is worth 10 points.

Each +1 (-1) positive (negative) damage or HP special effect is 7 points (-7 points). Assumption of 1 point per combat round effect with 7 total combat rounds per dungeon. Exception: Tokens that protect against only a certain type of damage (example cold damage) get +1 (-1) total as it is assumed that not every type of damage received will be of that type throughout the dungeon. Exception to exception: Tokens are given a maximum/minimum point total equivalent to a non-damage special of the same rarity. As an example, Charm of the Warm Wind is an uncommon worth 2 points even though only -1 to cold damage. Second Exception: Sneak attack assumption is 4 uses. Third Exception: If use of special power also causes damage to wearer assumption is 1 use as wearer would only use in situation where special power appropriate. Fourth Exception: Effect limited to one use per room (example Boots of Charging) assumption is 4 uses. First Clarification: If bonus is limited to melee or ranged, it counts as full points under the assumption that token wouldn’t be equipped unless player intended to use that type of attack. Second Clarification: If bonus applies only to certain type of weapon (for example, two-handed) it counts as full points under the assumption that token wouldn’t be equipped unless player intended to use that type of weapon. Third Clarification: If item gives bonus to one type of attack and negative to another type of attack, only positive bonus is counted toward points as it is assumed that player will use bonus type of attack (example Kilt of Fatherbane).

Skill check Re-Try is 5 points. Skill check automatic pass is 10 points. Skill check may allow for clue that helps solve puzzle (avoid push damage or damage from improper manipulation of items in room).

Each +1 (-1) of initiative is 5 (-5) points. Gaining/losing initiative may allow players/monsters to finish off opponent before allowing counterattack. See AC discussion for effect on D20 rolls. Reason this is 5 (-5) points because only situation where initiative leads to kill before counterattack will prevent damage.

Tokens with no in-game effect, for example treasure tokens are 0 points. Exception: As an example, a token that modifies Charisma has no direct in-game effect but may indirectly affect game by allowing a second figurine. See below for discussion of GP tokens.

Tokens with multiplier for each party member (for example, Charm of Awakened Synergy) assume all 10 party members have it equipped (so since +1 HP for each party member that has equipped, assumption is that it is worth +10 HP for party multiplied by 7 (assumption of healing at end of each room) for total of 70 points!

Bard instruments that affected melee and ranged for entire party have individual total multiplied by 8 under assumption 8 players are involved in combat. If instrument only affects melee or ranged, then multiplied by 4 (assumption is that combat is some rooms will be wrong type).

Wands that are 1 use per room assume 4 total uses (4 rooms of combat). Of course, carrying more than one wand would be additive on points as each wand would add to total player points.

Items that prolong life after death (example Shirt of the Valiant) are 5 point per round as assumed that character will inflict that much additional damage that round (character may be “really killed” before inflicting any more damage or may go multiple rounds). Item that brings character back to life is 25 points.

Items that require a slide of 20 are assumed to have 25% hit rate so value of outcome is scaled to that percentage. Example Arrow of Good Wind heals 8 HP if slide 20 making it worth 2 points (25% of 8 points). Ammunition (example arrows/seeds) that require a successful hit are assumed 75% chance (example Masterwork Arrow) (round up).

Dazing fist/Stunning fist twice in one combat is worth 5 points.

GP items are worth 1 point per 50 GP. Assumption is that they may be used with item such as Ash’s Death Pouch to add HP after revival. GP items could be used as potential NPC bribe. If neither situation applies, assumption is player would bring GP into dungeon in first place.

Healing token that applies to another party member as well as character is worth 10 points.

Items that do damage to all monsters in room have assumption that room has 2 monsters so double points.

Retribution damage (one use) is assumed to work once (example Scroll Valkyrie Shield).

Temporary stat boosts (example Potion Brawn) are 25% normal points as they apply only to one room and not the whole dungeon (remember normal assumption of 4 uses per dungeon) (round up minimum 1 point per category).

Temporary boosts (example Potion Polymorph (Asp)) that apply per attack are assumed to work for one attack.

Other Issues:

As discussed, feedback is needed on whether to apply points on a per level basis (4th/5th level) and also whether points should be assigned to the base character card (class differences).

An additional issue requiring feedback is whether to consider only tokens that are equipped. Should consumables and other items that are not equipped but are used in the dungeon count, or should we count tokens that are carried into the dungeon regardless of whether they are used in the dungeon? For example, player brings in 10 healing potions to dungeon and uses 5 during the dungeon. Do none of those potions count because they are not equipped, do 5 count because they were used, or do all 10 count because they were at the ready during the dungeon?

A similar question arises if points are assigned to character cards. Do we assign points to the spells that could be used even if they aren’t used, or only if they are used during the adventure?

If the point system is only used on an individual basis as a challenge, we might leave it up to the player to decide what system to use as it would be up to the player to track which non-equipped tokens were brought in and used. If used for actual XP, I suppose that it would need to be limited to equipped tokens with the further assumption that we are in a future in which all players are required to use an app to generate the player card, and the app would instantly total the points.

In this (admittedly future) world, I think of each dungeon level as having a base level of XP (say 2,000 normal, 3,000 hardcore, etc.) and then the number of character/token points is subtracted leaving the final total of XP (subject to room multipliers). There would be a minimum number of XP earned regardless of points. There would also need to be adjustments for party total points versus individual total points. For example, you wouldn’t want a low point player going through the dungeon with a party equipped to the hilt protecting that player with the low point player claiming high XP. Using the party total would also allow parties that use or more ghosts to gain additional XP as the party total would be lower.

Conclusion: Wow, you made it this far (did you just scroll to the end)!? To give a feel for how the points apply to actual tokens, I’ve attached a PDF with the point totals for each token issued in 2018. If there is interest, and after modifying/finalizing the point mechanism, I could go back and assign point values to tokens from other years. Thanks for any feedback you may have.


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Last edit: by Manimal.

Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #2

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I don't see an attachment.
You got it added after my post.

That said I said it before and will say it again. I don't think fun themed runs need any kind of incentive. I like the idea of having a different way to play, just for the sake of having a different way to play.
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Last edit: by jedibcg.

Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #3

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jedibcg wrote: I don't see an attachment.
You got it added after my post.

That said I said it before and will say it again. I don't think fun themed runs need any kind of incentive. I like the idea of having a different way to play, just for the sake of having a different way to play.


Agreed, I am 100% against having insensitive for different play modes as I feel that for a lot of people it makes them mandatory.
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Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #4

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Picc wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I don't see an attachment.
You got it added after my post.

That said I said it before and will say it again. I don't think fun themed runs need any kind of incentive. I like the idea of having a different way to play, just for the sake of having a different way to play.


Agreed, I am 100% against having insensitive for different play modes as I feel that for a lot of people it makes them mandatory.


Agree.

What about runs that don't have 10 players. Do they get a bump. Do want to incentivize that?

Two years ago, a group of us survived nightmare out of our starting pack plus one additonal token of our choice.
Last year a group of us survived nightmare using only 7 tokens.

Admittedly things are harder this year than those years, but still.
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Last edit: by Harlax.

Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #5

Harlax wrote:

Picc wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I don't see an attachment.
You got it added after my post.

That said I said it before and will say it again. I don't think fun themed runs need any kind of incentive. I like the idea of having a different way to play, just for the sake of having a different way to play.


Agreed, I am 100% against having insensitive for different play modes as I feel that for a lot of people it makes them mandatory.


Agree.

What about runs that don't have 10 players. Do they get a bump. Do want to incentivize that?

Two years ago, a group of us survived nightmare out of our starting pack plus one additonal token of our choice.
Last year a group of us survived nightmare using only 7 tokens.

Admittedly things are harder this year than those years, but still.


Simple answer is No. Anyone who wishes to apply handicaps to their build should do so for the fun of it. Not sure why TPTB should need to sanction it with +treasure.

If it were some kind of True Celebration event, and a challenge / gauntlet was thrown down - I'd understand there being some incentive there.
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Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #6

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Harlax wrote:

Picc wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I don't see an attachment.
You got it added after my post.

That said I said it before and will say it again. I don't think fun themed runs need any kind of incentive. I like the idea of having a different way to play, just for the sake of having a different way to play.


Agreed, I am 100% against having insensitive for different play modes as I feel that for a lot of people it makes them mandatory.


Agree.

What about runs that don't have 10 players. Do they get a bump. Do want to incentivize that?

Two years ago, a group of us survived nightmare out of our starting pack plus one additonal token of our choice.
Last year a group of us survived nightmare using only 7 tokens.

Admittedly things are harder this year than those years, but still.


Agree 100%
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Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #7

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While I don't care for his proposal, I do want to commend John for creativity.

But I think the answer is not putting artificial restrictions or incentives on token use, but rather creating additional character classes that will encourage build diversity.

Now you can all feel free to tell me that's a terrible idea. ;)
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

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Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #8

Harlax wrote: While I don't care for his proposal, I do want to commend John for creativity.

But I think the answer is not putting artificial restrictions or incentives on token use, but rather creating additional character classes that will encourage build diversity.

Now you can all feel free to tell me that's a terrible idea. ;)



I think this is the solution we need, but aren't ready for. Maybe when the party card becomes digitized or something.

There's also the question as to what to do about the lack of class-specific tokens for anything new.
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Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #9

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Arnold wrote:

Harlax wrote: While I don't care for his proposal, I do want to commend John for creativity.

But I think the answer is not putting artificial restrictions or incentives on token use, but rather creating additional character classes that will encourage build diversity.

Now you can all feel free to tell me that's a terrible idea. ;)



I think this is the solution we need, but aren't ready for. Maybe when the party card becomes digitized or something.

There's also the question as to what to do about the lack of class-specific tokens for anything new.

Class specific tokens...
I guess that initial class development would need to be concurrent with token development.... to get a few out there to begin with. Then it becomes part of the regular token generation cycle....

Retconning would/could be a pain... the mighty longbow for example... if a new class could also use it....

Unless all new classes fell in as sub classes to existing ones.... but that maybe defeats the purpose of having new classes to begin with...

It gets messy....
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Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #10

All,

Perhaps I wasn't clear about the use of the word "incentives" with respect to the idea. By incentive, I meant simply an additional way for a player/party to challenge itself. This would not be required and would not change the game mechanics at all. I did suggest that maybe, in the future, the system could be used to award XP, but that would require nearly universal pre-generation of stats (or a world in which all coaches and DMs are using tablets to track stats and update them on the fly throughout the dungeon).

So I'm not suggesting that the game mechanics be changed or that anyone is forced to do it this way. I suppose if XP were involved that some might feel compelled to take the system into account. But that is no different than the fact that now additional XP is awarded for completing a dungeon in Hardcore or above as compared to Normal.

For the present, I am really focused on developing a point system that is as accurate as possible in valuing each token as far as it's ability to help a character survive the dungeon. This is to provide a system for those that want to voluntarily challenge themselves. I think it would be fun to have players try to make it through the dungeon at various levels (normal, hardcore, etc.) with the fewest points in tokens. Or there could be fun runs that limit a player to no more than a particular point total. But again, this is totally voluntary on the part of the player/party and in no way is being suggested as required.

So if anyone out there wants to try this idea in the future and/or has suggestions for improvement, let me know and I'll try to incorporate those suggestions and expand the token list to include prior years as well.

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Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #11

  • Harlax
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I think you will find that XP is nearly as controversial as Treasure and power creep.

If people want to try this as a personal challenge, fine. Similar things have already been done.

But the pace of XP gain has already ramped up more than enough with the addition of a third dungeon.
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Token Point System 1 year 11 months ago #12

Re: XP - it’s two very different things.

The current system grants three levels of XP. The DMs look at the party card and adjust the monster stats accordingly. Cheating the system isn’t really possible, and all of the cromulent variables are under the DMs control.

Cheating on points would be dead easy. People could provide a max-XP build with just the party card tokens, but smuggle in pockets full of slotless and undocumented conditional tokens to pull out during the run. Widseth’s, Librams, Lamps, Figurines: These are tokens the coaches now ignore in their quest to process the party card quickly.

And if the only way to stop what has now become cheating is to put any additional burden on coaches to verify more tokens, or on the DMs to ensure every token you try to pull out is authorized in that build, then it’s a 100% no-go.

And that’s why TD cannot offer any incentives that would be based on playing a variant of those already supported.

Besides, XP is all calculated programmatically. Any change to the XP system will require programming hours that will affect only a small percentage of players. It has to be an extremely low priority and expense.

You have to remember this is one proposal. If TD makes any accommodations to this variant, then it will have to make similar accommodations for others. That’s a rabbit hole they just can’t afford to go down.

All just my opinion.
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