Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2

TOPIC: PvP Lessons Learned

PvP Lessons Learned 1 year 4 months ago #13

  • Donald Rients
  • Donald Rients's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Hero Member +1
  • 2008 and Current True Arena Grand Champion
  • Posts: 1104
Incognito wrote:
Sorry if I'm a little unsympathetic towards flawed PvP rules.

Since we've already seen many of these issues back with 2011 True Brawl (and even some issues with the old True Arena), designers should really know better because there are already concrete past examples

Matthew Hayward wrote:
Each team member got a token 10 pack, and then we had 30 minutes or so to:

a. Pick classes.
b. Strategize
c. Trade tokens within our team to get equipped

Were Deck of Many Things and Cogwind Amulets in effect?

Lessons Learned

1. AOE effects were too powerful: Wizards have Burning Hands that deals 9 to all players, Bards have 2x Soundburst that deals 8 to all players. With a single AOE scroll we could be looking at a near TPK after the first 3 actions.

2. Spell Surge on offensive spells are too powerful: Druid Firebolt + Spell Surge one shots anyone but the Barbarian or Dwarf Fighter.

These are very obvious issues. They are brought up almost every time PvP is discussed. I don't see why you needed to "learn" this lesson all over again when it was well documented.

4. DMs need to track HP for this event. There is too much chance for error and too much on the line for players to be tracking it.

I saw incidents in my run where a team announced (erroneously) to the DMs that player X should be dead based on what they'd taken, and I heard this happened in the other run as well.
I agree that the DM's should be doing this. I think that is pretty self-evident.

5. Druid, Elf Wizard, and Wizard, are likely too powerful even without AOE - Druids have 5 spells that auto hit for 11 or more damage, Elf Wizard 3 and Wizard 2. Perhaps all offensive spells should require a slide, or have a 20% miss chance, or something.

The non-barbarian melee classes are going to averaging maybe 6-7 points with a slide.

6. Barbarian might become too powerful if the spell casters get nerfed - their rage is simply +4 to damage for the entire encounter. If they have a two handed weapon their damage modifier is +11 (compared with +1 for Dwarf Fighter, +2 for Fighter, and +2 for Monk).

Potential Quick Fixes:

Class selection could be limited to Cleric, Fighter, Dwarf Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Paladin, and Rogue allowing up to 2 of any given class in one party.

Players could die only at the end of a turn.

Those two changes would I think have made it fairly balanced.

You could add back Bard if you made Soundburst not work against the other party and it was announced ahead of time so the Bard didn't waste an action.

The Druid, Wizard, and Elf Wizard probably require some major thought as to how to balance them for this kind of thing.

I have always strongly argued that if there were to be a PvP event, it really needs to have entirely new character cards just for the event. HP needs a different baseline. Spells need to be reworked.

As an example, with True Arena everyone was playing a special gladiator-type character class.

You missed #3. That was the worst part. Just because a player died last round shouldn't mean your team missed an attack on the next round. Very strange. It was still fun.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

PvP Lessons Learned 1 year 4 months ago #14

  • Jeff321
  • Jeff321's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Hero Member +1
  • Diablo Fan
  • Posts: 1330
The PvP was just ok for me. I wish we could have done the outdoor adventure instead (or an indoor version of it), but oh well.

I can certainly understand some people's complaints about it. And I agree that more tweaks would be needed if it's ever done again (more HP). Or maybe each team gets a boss monster and you have to kill your opponent's monster to win, rather than the other players. As it was, there were too many instant kills which I'm sure was unfun for those players.

I had more fun during the 30 minutes of planning rather than the actual combat.
Classes Played: Barbarian (14 times), Fighter (8), Cleric (7), Rogue (6), Monk (5), Ranger (5), Dwarf Fighter (5), Paladin (3), Druid (2), Elf Wizard (2).
The administrator has disabled public write access.

PvP Lessons Learned 1 year 4 months ago #15

jedibcg wrote:

I might suggest instead of being able to attack each other. That for a pvp event both teams can do something like attack each other's strongholds. You could even have them both on sliding on the same board if you still wanted to allow the ability to bump the opposing team. You could even give the stronghold abilities to enchance players. Maybe a wizard tower that adds to spell damage until it is destroyed. That type of thing. Just a thought.

This would be an interesting fix, instead of a direct confrontation it could be a "race"

Two parties fight through the same set of obstacles, the first one to achieve the objective (in rounds, not wall clock time) wins.

Then character rebalancing wouldn't be needed.
Pick your Purple and discounted token packs: discount-dungeon.com
The administrator has disabled public write access.

PvP Lessons Learned 1 year 4 months ago #16

  • jedibcg
  • jedibcg's Avatar
  • Online
  • Hero Member +2
  • What is personal text?
  • Posts: 6121
Matthew Hayward wrote:
jedibcg wrote:

I might suggest instead of being able to attack each other. That for a pvp event both teams can do something like attack each other's strongholds. You could even have them both on sliding on the same board if you still wanted to allow the ability to bump the opposing team. You could even give the stronghold abilities to enchance players. Maybe a wizard tower that adds to spell damage until it is destroyed. That type of thing. Just a thought.

This would be an interesting fix, instead of a direct confrontation it could be a "race"

Two parties fight through the same set of obstacles, the first one to achieve the objective (in rounds, not wall clock time) wins.

Then character rebalancing wouldn't be needed.

We could actually do this in two ways I am thinking. One is just races on assaulting a stronghold. Only one team at a time and see which team can take down the stronghold in the least number of rounds (while the stronghold) is hitting back in some predetermined manner. You need it to hit back so armor, saves, and healing matter or else all teams would just build the biggest glass cannons.


Or you do have it with 2 teams against each other so they can affect each other even if they cannot attack each other. Allow them to slide and bump each other (possibly damaging their own stronghold).
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

PvP Lessons Learned 1 year 4 months ago #17

I agree with most here, that the planning was the more fun aspect of what we did rather than the actual play.

Bottom line, there was too much potential for people not to get a turn or turns to make it fun.

If the tweaks in the 2nd round weren't enough, maybe more are necessary.

I like the idea of a race, with bumping sliders. Letting players influence each other without actually killing each other.
First ever death in True Horde
"Well, with you guarding 2 players, that means you take 90. Are you dead?"
-Incognito

My fledgling token shop: Wade's Wide World of Wonder 

My Current Paladin Build 
The administrator has disabled public write access.

PvP Lessons Learned 1 year 4 months ago #18

I like that idea also, it could be something as simple as which is the first team to deal "X" damage to the other team, or who deals the most damage in a set number of rounds. I'm sure some twists could be added to make it more interesting and unpredictable. It would be great if everyone kept playing to the end. I can imagine how disappointing it would be to get into one of these events, and maybe get killed before you get to take a single turn.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

PvP Lessons Learned 1 year 4 months ago #19

Jeff321 wrote:
The PvP was just ok for me. I wish we could have done the outdoor adventure instead (or an indoor version of it), but oh well.

I can certainly understand some people's complaints about it. And I agree that more tweaks would be needed if it's ever done again (more HP). Or maybe each team gets a boss monster and you have to kill your opponent's monster to win, rather than the other players. As it was, there were too many instant kills which I'm sure was unfun for those players.

I had more fun during the 30 minutes of planning rather than the actual combat.

This was my first experience with PVP. I probably would have preferred an indoor version of the adventure and like Jeff really enjoyed the strategy part where we were planning our prep round etc.

I'm not going to beat the horse dead- everybody here has great valid points. I enjoyed it but it's not something I would likely sign up for on my own. In order to make in a type of adventure I would pay for, it would need significant tweaks.

I like the sealed pack limitation, but maybe there should be a limit in character classes and because we were the first round I agree with earlier posts about some of the decisions that were later changed for other rounds. I will say this- the DM's showed great agility going from round to round tweaking and trying to enhance the experience. It may have not been ideal for us but hopefully throughout the afternoon it felt different based on feedback and that's impressive.

I would've liked for every confrontation between players to roll initiative to decide who attacks first and instead of picking who to target that it's a one on one combat - this way we overcome some players getting killed before they even get the chance to play.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

PvP Lessons Learned 1 year 4 months ago #20

This is a very interesting thread for me as I was not able to participate but I love the idea of PvP.

As one who enjoys the challenge of sliding, I can't help but imagine some kind of simultaneous same-table sliding option augmented by weak magnetic targets under the table. Do you try to slide first for a clearer shot at the main target? Or do you wait to try to knock your opponent out? In any case, it would be exciting if tokens were colliding in the middle.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

PvP Lessons Learned 1 year 4 months ago #21

  • balthasar
  • balthasar's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Hero Member +1
  • Posts: 2830
I have been fiddling around with a 4v4 team PvP that includes 'drafting' cards that represent tokens. The teams swap around to build the best characters they can, choosing from a limited number of altered cards. Certain spells are too powerful, so they are eliminated, and others have the number of uses reduced. Combat is essentially simultaneous, with each team submitting a list of their targets, and then sliding. Damage gets totaled, and announced to both teams. They don't know the class of the players they attack, unless some sort of special ability is used that would reveal that player's choice, like a spell or special ability. Everyone gets at least one round of attack, with more to follow if they weren't 'ganged' up on early.

The only tokens that are actually needed are weapons, which I am short on due to transmuting, lol.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2
Time to create page: 0.136 seconds