TOPIC: Early True Dungeon Celebration Feedback

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: On the other hand, I hated the PlayerVsPlayer and will never do another.

Let me tale you the story of 2011 when those of us on the Golden Ticket got to do True Brawl (very unbalanced with lots of one-shot kills) and a pizza party (pizza wasn't even that great). That's it.

Didn't even got a single UR, let alone all the crazy Relic/Legendary/Coin of Fate stuff that has happened in more recent years. And nothing unique like Deck of Many Things or Cogwind Amulets.

I didn't even realize that was the special "room". Through the entire Dungeon, I kept waiting for our unique room/event to pop up. It wasn't until the Exit Room that I realized the Brawl/Pizza was our unique event. (Although two of us did get a plastic Red Herring, which might turn out to be pretty cool).

You misunderstand my comment. I'm grateful they did anything for us, and I'm not disappointed that we "only" got a PvP. The weather was uncooperative, and they didn't have to do anything for us in the first place.

I just want nothing to do with PvP under any circs in the future. And, if I could go back in time, I'd have skipped that one, too.

Hi Brad,

I'm curious what you didn't like about the event. It seemed like a fun event, and from our Coaching room right next to it, it sounded like most of the people were having a great time (although maybe that wasn't the same PvP group you were in). I'm just wondering what specifically you didn't like, as perhaps they can take that as feedback to improve it if they have it again in the future.

Thanks,
Mike

I thought it was a rule that players are not allowed to attack their own party members.

Maybe my emotions are still raw and I take things a bit too personally at the moment. But I'm still not over it.

So I'm glad everyone else had fun. Just not my cup of tea.

For additional context: Apparently there was a situation where a player on the opposing team bribed Raven to attack her own team. She accepted, and inadvertently slid a "20" on her own team's Cleric. (I'm guessing that Brad was the Cleric....)

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: On the other hand, I hated the PlayerVsPlayer and will never do another.

Let me tale you the story of 2011 when those of us on the Golden Ticket got to do True Brawl (very unbalanced with lots of one-shot kills) and a pizza party (pizza wasn't even that great). That's it.

Didn't even got a single UR, let alone all the crazy Relic/Legendary/Coin of Fate stuff that has happened in more recent years. And nothing unique like Deck of Many Things or Cogwind Amulets.

I didn't even realize that was the special "room". Through the entire Dungeon, I kept waiting for our unique room/event to pop up. It wasn't until the Exit Room that I realized the Brawl/Pizza was our unique event. (Although two of us did get a plastic Red Herring, which might turn out to be pretty cool).

You misunderstand my comment. I'm grateful they did anything for us, and I'm not disappointed that we "only" got a PvP. The weather was uncooperative, and they didn't have to do anything for us in the first place.

I just want nothing to do with PvP under any circs in the future. And, if I could go back in time, I'd have skipped that one, too.

Hi Brad,

I'm curious what you didn't like about the event. It seemed like a fun event, and from our Coaching room right next to it, it sounded like most of the people were having a great time (although maybe that wasn't the same PvP group you were in). I'm just wondering what specifically you didn't like, as perhaps they can take that as feedback to improve it if they have it again in the future.

Thanks,
Mike

I thought it was a rule that players are not allowed to attack their own party members.

Maybe my emotions are still raw and I take things a bit too personally at the moment. But I'm still not over it.

So I'm glad everyone else had fun. Just not my cup of tea.

For additional context: Apparently there was a situation where a player on the opposing team bribed Raven to attack her own team. She accepted, and inadvertently slid a "20" on her own team's Cleric. (I'm guessing that Brad was the Cleric....)

No, I was Bard. I got to stand around after that for another four rounds and was basically accused of cheating because I still had 1 HP left until the third hit.

I think the other team started with an extra player, so the combat went from 11 against 10,to 12 against 8 after the cleric got one-shotted.

They should certainly offer PvP for those who want to play that sort of game. Just don't invite me.

Understood, Brad. Normally you can't attack other players, but it seems in PvP that rule is changed by necessity. The bribe was actually originally supposed to be for Raven to switch teams, but I didn't do the negotiation so I don't know the details. The important part was we only used the GP from our 10-packs for the bribe.

In the end, one of our players died first, and then Raven switched back to your team (after killing the Cleric?), so it ended up being 10 vs 9 fairly quickly. Still not ideal.

From my perspective the only big issue was that players were getting killed in one attack. If we had doubled the normal base HP that would have made it a better (albeit longer) experience.

But it is OK for it to not be your cup of tea

Following Fiddy's post, here is my "Good" and "Just a Little Bad" feedback.

The Good

• The underground dungeon was just awesome. As Fiddy mentioned, most of the rooms were larger than normal,
  and the occasional chair and wall you can lean on was nice.
• The Patron event was a lot of fun. The token design was more than I expected (actually designing three tokens with art). Seeing the workshop was also cool. I did like the PvP combat as a novelty as well.
• True Horde was a lot of fun. I'd prefer Grind if I had to choose, but again as a novelty it was very fun.
• Even the trivia was a lot of fun, thanks for your hard work on that Jeff.
• The facilities overall were great. It looks like they may be building hotel rooms at Walker's Bluff. Perhaps that will be done before we have the event again?
• I really enjoyed playing Regent, thanks for sharing Jeff.

The Just a Little Bad

• The event tickets and the signs on site didn't always match up correctly.
• It would have been nice to have a schedule of events in the registration bag, including the opening/closing hours for the two restaurants.
• It sounds like the treasure tokens weren't checked as thoroughly as planned, and I heard some farming ocurred (specifically CoAs not being in the dungeon for the whole run but still getting the treasure).
  
• I didn't love the elimination of the opportunity to ghost runs.

Regarding my last comment, I understand the reasoning for it, but I'mm thinking there are still better options to avoid farming. It hit me specifically because I wanted to organize a sealed pack run, so I had to buy a full 10 tickets (it isn't fun doing a sealed pack run on Normal difficulty if part of your party is using a powerful build). Unfortunately I was only able to get 7 players despite trying pretty hard to find other players (we even almost got some random restaurant guests to play).

I guess I could have just returned the tickets right before our start time, but then I'm screwing Jeff out of income. Instead I cashed them in for their 10-packs, but obviously that's not a good deal on my end.

Specifically for an event aimed at veteran players, I think it is important to be able to buy out entire runs to do creative runs, and ideally without having to be down $26 per unused slot. But again I understand the desire to make sure the runs didn't all fill up. I don't know what the final ticket sales numbers were, but at one point I think it was left open to changing this rule if the slots weren't all filled up.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Understood, Brad. Normally you can't attack other players, but it seems in PvP that rule is changed by necessity. The bribe was actually originally supposed to be for Raven to switch teams, but I didn't do the negotiation so I don't know the details. The important part was we only used the GP from our 10-packs for the bribe.

In the end, one of our players died first, and then Raven switched back to your team (after killing the Cleric?), so it ended up being 10 vs 9 fairly quickly. Still not ideal.

From my perspective the only big issue was that players were getting killed in one attack. If we had doubled the normal base HP that would have made it a better (albeit longer) experience.

But it is OK for it to not be your cup of tea

Somehow, that answer made my feelings about the whole situation so much worse

Brad Mortensen wrote: No, I was Bard. I got to stand around after that for another four rounds and was basically accused of cheating because I still had 1 HP left until the third hit.

I think the other team started with an extra player, so the combat went from 11 against 10,to 12 against 8 after the cleric got one-shotted.

They should certainly offer PvP for those who want to play that sort of game. Just don't invite me.

In a PvP situation, the DM should really be keeping track of every player's HP. The "honor system" doesn't work as well once you introduce a competitive element since some people will do anything to "win."

Kirk Bauer wrote: From my perspective the only big issue was that players were getting killed in one attack. If we had doubled the normal base HP that would have made it a better (albeit longer) experience.

That is a well-documented issue which is been known since the ill-fated 2011 Brawl.

Any PvP should really deal with this issue.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Understood, Brad. Normally you can't attack other players, but it seems in PvP that rule is changed by necessity. The bribe was actually originally supposed to be for Raven to switch teams, but I didn't do the negotiation so I don't know the details. The important part was we only used the GP from our 10-packs for the bribe.

In the end, one of our players died first, and then Raven switched back to your team (after killing the Cleric?), so it ended up being 10 vs 9 fairly quickly. Still not ideal.

From my perspective the only big issue was that players were getting killed in one attack. If we had doubled the normal base HP that would have made it a better (albeit longer) experience.

But it is OK for it to not be your cup of tea

Somehow, that answer made my feelings about the whole situation so much worse

Sorry, I intended for it to make you feel better about the situation. In any case I'm sorry if that contributed to you not having fun. I was taking it as a fun and crazy event so I didn't consider any negative impact of the bribe. Nonetheless, the fact that our team had 11 against your 10 might still have ended in the same result.

I'll have more to say later, and I'll be posting a riddle reveal for TDC, hopefully tomorrow, but I gots to go to bed!

For now, as the AC, I want to give a huge shout out to my DMs and NPCs - while there were a couple bumps as always, overall I thought they did an outstanding job! THANK YOU!!!

Huge thanks as well to the coaches, admins, backstage works, and all the volunteers!

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Understood, Brad. Normally you can't attack other players, but it seems in PvP that rule is changed by necessity. The bribe was actually originally supposed to be for Raven to switch teams, but I didn't do the negotiation so I don't know the details. The important part was we only used the GP from our 10-packs for the bribe.

In the end, one of our players died first, and then Raven switched back to your team (after killing the Cleric?), so it ended up being 10 vs 9 fairly quickly. Still not ideal.

From my perspective the only big issue was that players were getting killed in one attack. If we had doubled the normal base HP that would have made it a better (albeit longer) experience.

But it is OK for it to not be your cup of tea

Somehow, that answer made my feelings about the whole situation so much worse

Sorry, I intended for it to make you feel better about the situation. In any case I'm sorry if that contributed to you not having fun. I was taking it as a fun and crazy event so I didn't consider any negative impact of the bribe. Nonetheless, the fact that our team had 11 against your 10 might still have ended in the same result.

Maybe if this is ever done again, there should be a rule against anyone switching teams or attacking a teammate? That might help prevent issues and keep the sides more even.

The biggest testament to how great True Dungeon Celebration was for my group is that all of my friends would love to come back next year for another one if it is held again, and we'll probably add a couple more friends to the group attending.

Mike Steele wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Understood, Brad. Normally you can't attack other players, but it seems in PvP that rule is changed by necessity. The bribe was actually originally supposed to be for Raven to switch teams, but I didn't do the negotiation so I don't know the details. The important part was we only used the GP from our 10-packs for the bribe.

In the end, one of our players died first, and then Raven switched back to your team (after killing the Cleric?), so it ended up being 10 vs 9 fairly quickly. Still not ideal.

From my perspective the only big issue was that players were getting killed in one attack. If we had doubled the normal base HP that would have made it a better (albeit longer) experience.

But it is OK for it to not be your cup of tea

Somehow, that answer made my feelings about the whole situation so much worse

Sorry, I intended for it to make you feel better about the situation. In any case I'm sorry if that contributed to you not having fun. I was taking it as a fun and crazy event so I didn't consider any negative impact of the bribe. Nonetheless, the fact that our team had 11 against your 10 might still have ended in the same result.

Maybe if this is ever done again, there should be a rule against anyone switching teams or attacking a teammate? That might help prevent issues and keep the sides more even.

I have no problem with pvp events, but I agree players should still not be allowed to switch sides or attack their own team. I think the back story of this particular event should have swayed the DMs into not allowing it at this event. We were separate groups summoned into an arena by a powerful wizard and we each saw the opposing team as monsters. So how and when in this event would a bribe have taken place? I have no problem with fun and intrigue, but only if it makes sense in the event.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Following Fiddy's post, here is my "Good" and "Just a Little Bad" feedback.

The Good

• The underground dungeon was just awesome. As Fiddy mentioned, most of the rooms were larger than normal,
  and the occasional chair and wall you can lean on was nice.
• The Patron event was a lot of fun. The token design was more than I expected (actually designing three tokens with art). Seeing the workshop was also cool. I did like the PvP combat as a novelty as well.
• True Horde was a lot of fun. I'd prefer Grind if I had to choose, but again as a novelty it was very fun.
• Even the trivia was a lot of fun, thanks for your hard work on that Jeff.
• The facilities overall were great. It looks like they may be building hotel rooms at Walker's Bluff. Perhaps that will be done before we have the event again?
• I really enjoyed playing Regent, thanks for sharing Jeff.

The Just a Little Bad

• The event tickets and the signs on site didn't always match up correctly.
• It would have been nice to have a schedule of events in the registration bag, including the opening/closing hours for the two restaurants.
• It sounds like the treasure tokens weren't checked as thoroughly as planned, and I heard some farming ocurred (specifically CoAs not being in the dungeon for the whole run but still getting the treasure).
  
• I didn't love the elimination of the opportunity to ghost runs.

Regarding my last comment, I understand the reasoning for it, but I'mm thinking there are still better options to avoid farming. It hit me specifically because I wanted to organize a sealed pack run, so I had to buy a full 10 tickets (it isn't fun doing a sealed pack run on Normal difficulty if part of your party is using a powerful build). Unfortunately I was only able to get 7 players despite trying pretty hard to find other players (we even almost got some random restaurant guests to play).

I guess I could have just returned the tickets right before our start time, but then I'm screwing Jeff out of income. Instead I cashed them in for their 10-packs, but obviously that's not a good deal on my end.

Specifically for an event aimed at veteran players, I think it is important to be able to buy out entire runs to do creative runs, and ideally without having to be down $26 per unused slot. But again I understand the desire to make sure the runs didn't all fill up. I don't know what the final ticket sales numbers were, but at one point I think it was left open to changing this rule if the slots weren't all filled up.

This event had the unique challenge in that there were a large number of Patrons compared to the number of Runs available, and Patrons had the first shot at buying tickets. I think if Jeff hadn't put in place restrictions on Ghosting and on the number of tickets that could be bought, it is likely there would have been few (and maybe zero) tickets available for non-Patrons to buy.

It will be interesting to see how Ghosting is handled at other conventions. And it is pretty disturbing and disappointing if Charms of Avarice were loaned to another group (especially if they weren't really even carried through the Dungeon) after Jeff specifically asked that not be done.