TOPIC: The giant eye monster fight was wrong

Graham Smallwood wrote: Yes, it's eyebeams were right from the point of view of stock DnD, but it was awful when viewed from a game design or even a customer retention point of view.

In a three round fight, the wizards were silenced, silenced, and anti-magic'd. And the monster was immune to wands. You just don't make AI that can stunlock a player like that. Have the effect be "Getting the skill check right does normal damage, and wrong does no damage." Then your players will get to play, and their last memory is "That was awesome" not "Why am I here?"

I am actually an experienced player who agrees with you on several of your points.

The room was poorly designed. Was it intended that you would only get 3 rounds of combat? (Ed's solo experiences seems to indicate otherwise). If not, then the room mechanics were overly complicated such that a lot of parties (including my second run through this dungeon) only got 3 rounds. That gave me A LOT of negative vibes reminding me of the Smoak year (where a large chunk of players lost because they only had 3 rounds of combat against the dragon).

Secondly, I think a lot of experienced players have forgotten the frustration of dealing with damage reduction and magic resistance because they've gotten so used to the grossly overpowered Eldritch set. That was a complication on top of the silence and anti-magic effects.

Incognito wrote: Was it intended that you would only get 3 rounds of combat?

no
On rounds 4, 7, etc. the cycle would repeat.

Wait, were the small eyes supposed to hit one person or everyone? We rolled one reflex save, and the DM gave an effect to everyone. "Fighter is dazed, wizard is silenced, monk gets dysentary, elf stays an elf and is also silenced..." Some of the responses seem to be implying that a little eye hits only one each round. (I understand that the anti-magic eye is on the Wizard and three others only in round 3.) One eye would be quite a difference.

But the idea that this is a "team game" is so very mega wrong even if half off-topic. The hard levels, yes. They are balanced high with the assumption a geared-up team is going in. But in Normal you have singles and doubles joining. If TD does not balance Normal for these players, new players will dry up. Telling someone they can't play or can't play how they want is a Bad Thing. (Please just believe this was my job for twelve years.) Cater to the casuals to support the hardcore.

Graham Smallwood wrote: Wait, were the small eyes supposed to hit one person or everyone?

I think it was in between.

There was a chart on the wall, each round the Beholder was effecting 1/3rd of the classes. The party would make 1 save roll to determine the base save roll for those 4 classes. I think each of those classes would suffer some effect if they failed a save with their save bonus plus that base save roll.

That was the same 4 classes that were under the effect of the anit-magic cone.

Graham Smallwood wrote: But the idea that this is a "team game" is so very mega wrong even if half off-topic. The hard levels, yes. They are balanced high with the assumption a geared-up team is going in. But in Normal you have singles and doubles joining. If TD does not balance Normal for these players, new players will dry up. Telling someone they can't play or can't play how they want is a Bad Thing. (Please just believe this was my job for twelve years.) Cater to the casuals to support the hardcore.

Insisting TD is not a team game is a rhetorical dead end.

It is a team game.

Your success or failure is primarily dictated by the behavior of other people in your party.

On NM (I think), while each round affected a different third of the party, the entire party had to pass a saving throw. I failed and was silenced for the combat on my 5-person run. I could have slid for melee, but I just hung out and pantomimed cheering - I don't think I could improve the slides of the people I was with (Raven, et al). I didn't feel bad, though - I knew about the magic resistance (which I can't yet bypass), so I used all my big damage spells in previous rooms.

I liked the beholder combat. Creative, different, well-run.

Graham Smallwood wrote: Wait, were the small eyes supposed to hit one person or everyone? We rolled one reflex save, and the DM gave an effect to everyone. "Fighter is dazed, wizard is silenced, monk gets dysentary, elf stays an elf and is also silenced..." Some of the responses seem to be implying that a little eye hits only one each round. (I understand that the anti-magic eye is on the Wizard and three others only in round 3.) One eye would be quite a difference.

But the idea that this is a "team game" is so very mega wrong even if half off-topic. The hard levels, yes. They are balanced high with the assumption a geared-up team is going in. But in Normal you have singles and doubles joining. If TD does not balance Normal for these players, new players will dry up. Telling someone they can't play or can't play how they want is a Bad Thing. (Please just believe this was my job for twelve years.) Cater to the casuals to support the hardcore.

if the dm would have been rooling saves for everyone, there would have maybe been 2 rounds of combat(if you were lucky)
it is a dungeon..like D&D you may not survive every adventure.
the DM never said you couldnt do anything, they just said you were silenced.
so if the told the rogue that their feet are stuck in goo and cant move..would the rogue give up..or maybe switch to ranged weapon..
it is the "boss" room, it is suppose to be harder..

anyone try mind blank to remove and/or prevent the effects of the ray? I don't know that it would work but it seems to should allow some characters to resume combat like the rogue, cleric and druid

jedibcg wrote: anyone try mind blank to remove and/or prevent the effects of the ray? I don't know that it would work but it seems to should allow some characters to resume combat like the rogue, cleric and druid

We did... it worked wonderfully

I think we are going to see a lot more of this kind of mechanic, especially on higher difficulty levels. As player power inevitably continues to rise, something will be needed to keep the challenge in the game. Something other than simply piling on more hit points.


Hey, at least my fear of a disintegrate ray was not realized.

Graham Smallwood wrote: But the idea that this is a "team game" is so very mega wrong even if half off-topic. The hard levels, yes. They are balanced high with the assumption a geared-up team is going in. But in Normal you have singles and doubles joining. If TD does not balance Normal for these players, new players will dry up. Telling someone they can't play or can't play how they want is a Bad Thing. (Please just believe this was my job for twelve years.) Cater to the casuals to support the hardcore.

Ive got to disagree with you there. On a fundamental level every longterm game Ive played that has gone after the casual market to hard has lost the hardcore, and IMO you need both. Look at world of warcrafts sub numbers from the last expansion for an example. To easy, casuals still complain, hardcores get board and leave. IMO you shouldnt be catering to any sub group of players, you should be focused on building a good/fair game and trust your players to reilize it.

Chris Von Wahlde wrote:

jedibcg wrote: anyone try mind blank to remove and/or prevent the effects of the ray? I don't know that it would work but it seems to should allow some characters to resume combat like the rogue, cleric and druid

We did... it worked wonderfully

We tried it and it did not work... maybe because it was a NM run?

or

Lack of consistency?

Kaledor wrote:

Chris Von Wahlde wrote:

jedibcg wrote: anyone try mind blank to remove and/or prevent the effects of the ray? I don't know that it would work but it seems to should allow some characters to resume combat like the rogue, cleric and druid

We did... it worked wonderfully

We tried it and it did not work... maybe because it was a NM run?

or

Lack of consistency?

I stocked up on them Still have between 20 and 30 but I only remembered in one combat and decided to give it a pass. It would be interesting to know if it was supposed to work.