TOPIC: Proposed change to Free Movement

As others have said, it's going to start getting very, very hard to fit Bead of the Lucky Traveler into builds starting from next year. Assuming that a player has high level tokens available (which they likely do, if they have Bead of the Lucky Traveler, BiS choices for next year will include:

Bead of the Lucky Traveler
Beads of Whispers
Bead of Focus / Bead of Guided Strike
Master Ale Drinker's Bead
Bead of Bounty
Bead of Cleric's Piety / Dire Bear

If Boaz's Bead of Whispers is owned, then along with Bead of Bounty it effectively locks two of the three bead slots. If you are playing a wizard, Rogue or possibly Fighter class, the third slot will very likely be taken up by Bead of Focus or Bead of Guided Strike. If you are playing anything else, the third slot is still contested between Bead of the Lucky Traveler, Master Ale Drinker's Bead, and Bead Cleric's Piety. While Bead of the Lucky Traveler would likely be the token of choice for the latter, I think we're still going to see it appearing in less builds starting from next year.

The word NERF comes to mind when I read all of this. It also brings to mind when the first time the Supreme Rings were created...Eldritch Damage showed up the same year. If you really want me to stop chasing crafting items this is a good way to start the process. I will say the same thing that I say quite often...make a rule book and live within in it. Nerfing my tokens that I worked for and why I do multiple runs for at every event, will definitely make me reconsider the time and expenditure for those efforts. If you want to do something positive go back and address the number of URs that have become little more than defunct over the last decades power curve creep.

I like the idea of a save if you have FM, but it should be a single save. Make it, you can move for the rest of the room. Miss it, you are stuck for the rest of the room. Saves every round would take too much time.

Another alternative, would be to allow the free movement, but the player takes damage when moving. So for constriction, you can move, but you take damage to do it. Don't move, no damage. You gain the benefit, but it's not free.

Ramsildor wrote: The word NERF comes to mind when I read all of this. It also brings to mind when the first time the Supreme Rings were created...Eldritch Damage showed up the same year. If you really want me to stop chasing crafting items this is a good way to start the process. I will say the same thing that I say quite often...make a rule book and live within in it. Nerfing my tokens that I worked for and why I do multiple runs for at every event, will definitely make me reconsider the time and expenditure for those efforts. If you want to do something positive go back and address the number of URs that have become little more than defunct over the last decades power curve creep.

all of this

Druegar wrote:

BasicBraining wrote: What if: freedom of movement grants a saving throw vs the same effects, vs. no FOM characters that would fail automatically?

That's an intriguing solution--I quite like it. The only fly in that solution's ointment is that saving throws take a fair amount of time to resolve--time that could be spent bashing the monster.

Yes, of course TD has saving throws for lots of things. I can't ever imagine a TD (or D&D, for that matter) ever doing away with saving throws. But we are very conscious of when we require them. There have been MANY room design discussions where it would make sense to have lots of saves, but we wind up cutting them because of the time sink involved.

I like the idea of it giving a save.

At higher end builds (NM+) most everyone has freedom of movement. Below that not as much.

Yes, it is a small Nerf to an item most people will still equip (lucky traveller.) Giving a saving throw rather than it being automatic still makes it pretty powerful.

I support it as I like rooms we have to think through or use odd tokens (confined space bead, etc,.).

I wouldn’t think about this like the eldritch damage. This is a more fundamental design idea that can make rooms more fun. Making more damage eldritch was to nerf resistances just developed without crushing players that didn’t get those items. There are other solutions to the players ignoring damage problem.

Lastly, I never liked freedom of movement in D&D letting you ignore underwater hindrances - it just never felt logical. That last piece is just my D&D gripe.

Fred

+1 to keeping things simple and easy to understand while expanding game possibilities.

However, if Free Movement is just a bonus added to a single die roll and the roll is low, everyone in the party will be stuck. For that reason, I think Free Movement should be a numerical bonus added to a Reflex Save. This still allows for some interesting game mechanics which seem to be behind Druegar's question and I wholeheartedly welcome while not dooming the entire party with one low roll.

Here's an example of how this might be interesting in an in-person combat situation...

A giant ten-armed Stone Golem appears in the room. (10) numbered hand graphics appear near the bottom of the monster board.

DM rolls one Reflex save for the party and then checks the party card for a Free Movement bonus which adds +5 each player's Reflex number.

If players miss the Reflex Save, they are in the clutches of one of the Stone Golem's hands. They are assigned one of the (10) spots on the bottom of the board and must slide their attacks from that starting position for the entire combat. The players in its grasp take +5 points of constricting damage per ranged attack they make and +10 points of constricting damage per melee attack they make for the entire combat.

If players make the Reflex Save, they have avoided the Golem's hands and can slide as usual.

Instead of somehow breaking FA for the duration of time that Lucky Traveler is basically in every build, how about taking the rooms you were going to break FA in and apply one of the other conditions from the Player's handbook (Ian referenced this earlier in the thread):

Confused
Cursed
Dazed
Diseased
Helpless
Nauseated
Shaken
Silenced
Sleep
Stun

Or, apply some effects that are on tokens but were never used (that I know of), but not in the PHB?
Heavy Rain
Natural Insects
seasickness
Fumes

One of the best draws here, is that for effects that don't have "answers" you can get some design space to add tokens that address the effect.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Ramsildor wrote: The word NERF comes to mind when I read all of this. It also brings to mind when the first time the Supreme Rings were created...Eldritch Damage showed up the same year. If you really want me to stop chasing crafting items this is a good way to start the process. I will say the same thing that I say quite often...make a rule book and live within in it. Nerfing my tokens that I worked for and why I do multiple runs for at every event, will definitely make me reconsider the time and expenditure for those efforts. If you want to do something positive go back and address the number of URs that have become little more than defunct over the last decades power curve creep.

all of this

One of my best friends, that played True Dungeon every year, quit permanently because he was so upset that the tokens that I bought the group were so often not being allowed to function in rooms. I think in that particular Dungeon there were multiple rooms where melee weapons were useless, along with all the tokens bought to enhance that melee damage.

I know it's hard to put the genie back into the bottle for printed tokens, like Free Movement, but maybe it's time for True Dungeon to be really intentional about no longer printing tokens that let players avoid Dungeon damage / hindrances. Just looking at the 2022 set, there are tokens at C/U/R levels that let players ignore all underwater hindrances (several at the Rare level), as well as tokens that remove charm, negate critical and sneak attack immunities, and a Scroll that removes Curse, Disease, Fear, Hold, Paralyzation, and Petrification. Those are all Dungeon challenges that players can avoid completely via tokens. Maybe it would be more fun to not print tokens like that, and make players deal with those challenges during the course of the adventure.

I think it's tough to design adventures, and anything that makes it tougher needs to be considered very carefully.

Having free movement is fun for a lot of players, particularly on a token that was produced as a reward for longevity.

I think it makes more sense to not completely exclude anyone (except perhaps at Epic).

Normal: FM, no penalty, no FM minor penalty
Hardcore: FM no or minor penalty, no FM, major penalty
Nm: FM minor or major penalty, no FM severe penalty or exclusion from combat
Epic: FM major penalty, no FM excluded from combat

Add +/- a single save for everyone once as needed.

Taking normal level players out of combat is a sure way to negatively impact their experience, and quickly decrease their chances of returning.

Once you move up, you wanted a tougher challenge already, now you've got one.
I do think FM is an ability I always will want on a first run of a dungeon, whether it comes at a minor or major cost to damage output or something else.

Some people want a cake walk, some want to be challenged.

I would be in favor of adjusting FM so that it works half the time rather than all the time, or gives a bonus to a single save. I'd like it to still be relevant some of the time.

One thing I know for sure. Any change is going to upset someone.

I'd encourage the community to be more constructive in working with TD on items like this. The saving throw suggestion was a great positive suggestion and I think pretty workable.

When you have a hair shy of 2,800 unique tokens, it will be necessary to revise effects. Yes, giving a great deal of thought to making immunities/resistances in the future is wise but TD won't be perfect in that. As players, we should be flexible as well.

MtG has obsoleted decks/cards as well as had significant rules changes on multiple occasions. Yes, players invested in their old decks were frustrated but they (mostly) understood it was for the good of the game.

I think a fair observation is to try and give 5 years (arbitrary number) of effects on a token before rule changes or game changes that completely obsolete it. I can name a dozen tokens that absolutely should be nerfed or declared no longer playable either for being overpowered or too confusing that TD has erred on the side of players to let them still stay usable (gloves of flying fists, cloak of displacement, assassin's crossbow, spirit bowl, soul coffer, staff of power (application to using alertness then changing weapons), etc..)

BoLT still has a pretty massive effect (+2 saves equal to UR Ioun Stones and Charms) so I doubt people will stop using it even if it had zero freedom of movement impact. We're also talking about a token that sells for $150 to $200, not $1,000. Several UR's from the same year sell for more than the bead. We're looking at a small limit to it so we can be challenged better - I support that.

True Dungeon shouldn't be "I have the best tokens therefore I always win." Some of the best combat rooms have been ones where we were surprised by unusual effects. The druid rebounding spells at us, Loki making party members appear as opponents, Giants throwing party members at each other, etc..

I like the idea of NM+ freedom of movement meaning we get a saving throw against certain effects and others are automatically ignored.

Fred

Fred K wrote: I'd encourage the community to be more constructive in working with TD on items like this. The saving throw suggestion was a great positive suggestion and I think pretty workable.

When you have a hair shy of 2,800 unique tokens, it will be necessary to revise effects. Yes, giving a great deal of thought to making immunities/resistances in the future is wise but TD won't be perfect in that. As players, we should be flexible as well.

MtG has obsoleted decks/cards as well as had significant rules changes on multiple occasions. Yes, players invested in their old decks were frustrated but they (mostly) understood it was for the good of the game.

I think a fair observation is to try and give 5 years (arbitrary number) of effects on a token before rule changes or game changes that completely obsolete it. I can name a dozen tokens that absolutely should be nerfed or declared no longer playable either for being overpowered or too confusing that TD has erred on the side of players to let them still stay usable (gloves of flying fists, cloak of displacement, assassin's crossbow, spirit bowl, soul coffer, staff of power (application to using alertness then changing weapons), etc..)

BoLT still has a pretty massive effect (+2 saves equal to UR Ioun Stones and Charms) so I doubt people will stop using it even if it had zero freedom of movement impact. We're also talking about a token that sells for $150 to $200, not $1,000. Several UR's from the same year sell for more than the bead. We're looking at a small limit to it so we can be challenged better - I support that.

True Dungeon shouldn't be "I have the best tokens therefore I always win." Some of the best combat rooms have been ones where we were surprised by unusual effects. The druid rebounding spells at us, Loki making party members appear as opponents, Giants throwing party members at each other, etc..

I like the idea of NM+ freedom of movement meaning we get a saving throw against certain effects and others are automatically ignored.

Fred

What can be done with a nerf to FM that couldn't also be done with another effect that would also open up additional design space?

Part of the problem is that effects that FM negate come up rather frequently. Instead of tweaking FM so it can be used multiple times per year, why not expand into some of the other conditions listed in the players handbook.

For example, perhaps a room design idea / goal is such that players need to slide with their off hand, or hop on 1 foot. The initial attempt is to design is such that FM would negate it. Instead of changing FM, why not try these:

Upon entering the room, you notice there are web like strands covering it. Too late, you have identified that the webbing causes disease that causes your dominant arm to hang limply from your side. Until you can cure disease, you must slide with your non dominant hand, and Rangers/ Monks may only make 1 attack.

Or:

The room is littered with large pillars of sand. With the arrival of the gigantic sand worm, fire ants have swarmed across the floor and into your boots, and you now realize that the sand worm is somehow controlling the ants. Unless you are immune to natural insects, you must hop on 1 foot to make attacks for the duration of the room.

Fred K wrote: I'd encourage the community to be more constructive in working with TD on items like this. The saving throw suggestion was a great positive suggestion and I think pretty workable.

When you have a hair shy of 2,800 unique tokens, it will be necessary to revise effects. Yes, giving a great deal of thought to making immunities/resistances in the future is wise but TD won't be perfect in that. As players, we should be flexible as well.

MtG has obsoleted decks/cards as well as had significant rules changes on multiple occasions. Yes, players invested in their old decks were frustrated but they (mostly) understood it was for the good of the game.

I think a fair observation is to try and give 5 years (arbitrary number) of effects on a token before rule changes or game changes that completely obsolete it. I can name a dozen tokens that absolutely should be nerfed or declared no longer playable either for being overpowered or too confusing that TD has erred on the side of players to let them still stay usable (gloves of flying fists, cloak of displacement, assassin's crossbow, spirit bowl, soul coffer, staff of power (application to using alertness then changing weapons), etc..)

BoLT still has a pretty massive effect (+2 saves equal to UR Ioun Stones and Charms) so I doubt people will stop using it even if it had zero freedom of movement impact. We're also talking about a token that sells for $150 to $200, not $1,000. Several UR's from the same year sell for more than the bead. We're looking at a small limit to it so we can be challenged better - I support that.

True Dungeon shouldn't be "I have the best tokens therefore I always win." Some of the best combat rooms have been ones where we were surprised by unusual effects. The druid rebounding spells at us, Loki making party members appear as opponents, Giants throwing party members at each other, etc..

I like the idea of NM+ freedom of movement meaning we get a saving throw against certain effects and others are automatically ignored.

Fred

Here's a question. Why is it often the case that many effects that FM avoids are not already getting saving throws in the first place? Maybe FM would matter less to players if they could benefit from their saves more often instead of running into "Got FM? Great you're ok. Don't got FM? Guess you're sitting out a round no matter what your saves are."