TOPIC: Proposed change to Free Movement

Druegar wrote:

BasicBraining wrote: What if: freedom of movement grants a saving throw vs the same effects, vs. no FOM characters that would fail automatically?

That's an intriguing solution--I quite like it. The only fly in that solution's ointment is that saving throws take a fair amount of time to resolve--time that could be spent bashing the monster.

Yes, of course TD has saving throws for lots of things. I can't ever imagine a TD (or D&D, for that matter) ever doing away with saving throws. But we are very conscious of when we require them. There have been MANY room design discussions where it would make sense to have lots of saves, but we wind up cutting them because of the time sink involved.

If the saving throw was once at the beginning it would reduce time. If you fail, too bad so sad, you face the room under the restrictions. This will keep the bead as a viable token but make it a more interesting outcome.

Ian Lee wrote: Currently, bead slot has actual competition for tokens to some minor degree. With further expansion, it can have enough competition that people can choose to have FM or not, as the other ways of FM are vastly less common at a certain level of play.

I think Ian's on to something here. If the issue is that "everyone" has Bead of the Lucky Traveler, and therefore mechanics negated by Free Movement are "too easy" to get around, this might be a problem that's about to solve itself. (Besides the obvious point that not everyone has Bead of the Lucky Traveler.)

Next year has a bead that almost everyone with the means to equip will equip--Bead of Bounty. Many people will want the Greater Bead of Whispers or Boaz's, especially newer players who don't have a mega-saves cloak. Bead of Focus is popular with casters. Bead of Guided Strike is important for Fighters, Dwarf Fighters, and Rogues who don't want to give up their wrist slot. Bead of Dark Resistance will be interesting to Rogues. Master Ale Drinker's Bead is popular with people who want CON. Bead Cleric's Piety and Bead of the Dire Bear are popular with people looking to buff a particular save (but may get pushed out in favor of a Whispers bead). Bead Whole Vision and Bead Unseen Vision are helpful when monsters are Incorporeal or Invisible. I think we're already reaching the point where Bead of the Lucky Traveler is about to get pushed out of a lot of builds. (And sure, if it turns out a particular run requires Free Movement, repeat players may swap Lucky Traveler back in. But they'll likely be giving up something else that is quite useful.)

Druegar wrote: This is the current definition of Free Movement as seen in the PHB:
Immunity to constriction, hold, paralyze, and slow Spells or effects, as well as a spider's webbing or similar sticky substances. It also negates underwater movement penalties.

This definition is so broad, it makes designing fun/interesting encounters very problematic. I can't tell you the number of times we've had an idea for a room that would have been fun to play, but we couldn't use because FM negates it. If FM was something only very few players had, this wouldn't be such a big deal. But since nearly all characters have FM, that fun challenge gets nerfed into oblivion.

We're considering making FM only negate magical movement restrictions, not mundane. FM would still negate the effects of hold, paralyze, slow, and web Spells. However, things like constriction/being grabbed by a large by a monster, non-magical webbing/sticky stuff, and movement penalties in natural fluids would still affect a character with FM.

Whaddya'll think?

Replace non magical with eldritch fire and you can pretty much guess where I fall on this.

This is a bad change.

Druegar wrote:

BasicBraining wrote: What if: freedom of movement grants a saving throw vs the same effects, vs. no FOM characters that would fail automatically?

That's an intriguing solution--I quite like it. The only fly in that solution's ointment is that saving throws take a fair amount of time to resolve--time that could be spent bashing the monster.

Yes, of course TD has saving throws for lots of things. I can't ever imagine a TD (or D&D, for that matter) ever doing away with saving throws. But we are very conscious of when we require them. There have been MANY room design discussions where it would make sense to have lots of saves, but we wind up cutting them because of the time sink involved.

Maybe one savings throw for the group each turn, for everyone with Free Movement they're stuck until the savings throw is made, everyone else stays stuck? Or, maybe instead of immunity Free Movement lets you move, but slower? Maybe you can still move, but just one space per turn, or every third turn?

Druegar wrote: This is the current definition of Free Movement as seen in the PHB:
Immunity to constriction, hold, paralyze, and slow Spells or effects, as well as a spider's webbing or similar sticky substances. It also negates underwater movement penalties.

This definition is so broad, it makes designing fun/interesting encounters very problematic. I can't tell you the number of times we've had an idea for a room that would have been fun to play, but we couldn't use because FM negates it. If FM was something only very few players had, this wouldn't be such a big deal. But since nearly all characters have FM, that fun challenge gets nerfed into oblivion.

We're considering making FM only negate magical movement restrictions, not mundane. FM would still negate the effects of hold, paralyze, slow, and web Spells. However, things like constriction/being grabbed by a large by a monster, non-magical webbing/sticky stuff, and movement penalties in natural fluids would still affect a character with FM.

Whaddya'll think?

I strongly dislike the nerfing of existing effects, especially when the effects and the negating have been in place for decades. Then again, I've also had multiple DMs over the years insist to me that the change you're suggesting is already how Free Movement is supposed to work, only on magical hindrances.

And part of me can't help but look ahead on that path and think that if this change happens, it won't be long before "oh hey, we need to change it so that things that protect against fire only protect against magical fire unless it explicitly says it protects against non-magical fire" and then the same for other damage types...

Let me state up front: I am very strongly in favor of fun/interesting encounters. I think that is one of the key draws for True Dungeon in general.

Tokens that negate interesting effects by definition negate fun, in my opinion. I've even seen encounters where players who could bypass a restriction with Free Movement chose not to because the restriction was fun.

That said, I strongly disagree with the following statement:

Druegar wrote: [N]early all characters have [Free Movement]

I'd say this statement is only true if you restrict it to:
- Virtual True Dungeon
- Experienced players who opt into Nightmare groups for in-person True Dungeon

I think a large portion of players on Normal do not have Free Movement and likely do not even know it exists. Players on Normal who have/know about Free Movement may have specifically sought out tokens for that effect. There's a reason why the Defender Set is a perennial favorite for heavy armor classes and why Boots of the Marauder still command a premium.

I think this is a situation where difficulty could potentially affect how a token works. To "yes and" the Saves suggestion from BasicBraining, perhaps it could be something like
No FM = auto fail
Normal: FM = auto pass
Hardcore: FM = save with bonus (or straight save)
NM: FM = straight save (or save with penalty)
Epic: FM = save with penalty

One other challenge I see with the "Saves" approach is that experienced players also use saves as a key indicator of "readiness" for the next difficulty level. Perhaps some of these effects could be included in an attack roll? AC seems to be undervalued by experienced players, so maybe this is an avenue to bolster that stat as well?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Druegar wrote: This is the current definition of Free Movement as seen in the PHB:
Immunity to constriction, hold, paralyze, and slow Spells or effects, as well as a spider's webbing or similar sticky substances. It also negates underwater movement penalties.

This definition is so broad, it makes designing fun/interesting encounters very problematic. I can't tell you the number of times we've had an idea for a room that would have been fun to play, but we couldn't use because FM negates it. If FM was something only very few players had, this wouldn't be such a big deal. But since nearly all characters have FM, that fun challenge gets nerfed into oblivion.

We're considering making FM only negate magical movement restrictions, not mundane. FM would still negate the effects of hold, paralyze, slow, and web Spells. However, things like constriction/being grabbed by a large by a monster, non-magical webbing/sticky stuff, and movement penalties in natural fluids would still affect a character with FM.

Whaddya'll think?

Replace non magical with eldritch fire and you can pretty much guess where I fall on this.

This is a bad change.

I just want to echo that eldritch+damage name is my least favorite part of the game. Why collect damage resistance if it is going to get nerfed at high level?

With that said I am open to toning down FOB if it opens up a bit more interesting play. I just don't want to see it become worthless which is where I think a lot of the concern is.

Someone may have already said this if so then I am just agreeing. I don't think FM is likely something as many players have as we think. Those active on the forums generally have access to more tokens than most players, and likely 90% (just a guess) of active forumites use FM. I would be surprised if most players had FM, as active forumites make up a small percentage of the player base. Though players playing might be a different thing because we are more likely to play multiple times. All that said, I am fine with whatever change TPTB think are best for the game.

1) I don't like things that constrain dungeon design. I know Grind has long had an issue with excessive Free Movement.
2) On the other hand, I don't like changing things that have been this way for a long time.
3) I also agree that mostly the high-end players have Free Movement, but I also assume the limitations on dungeon design matter more at NM and Epic levels.
4) I assume that the reason that most regular players have Free Movement is because of the Bead of the Lucky Traveler.

Based on this, and if #4 is true, the problem could get better over time. We just got the Bead of Focus, and we have a 2023 TE bead. If we stop adding Free Action to more tokens, and if we produce a couple of more good UR beads, then I think we'll see a lot fewer high-end players with free movement. I didn't have it on my main build for years until the Bead of the Lucky Traveller.

Until then, you can just get creative on avoiding it. Like in Grind, instead of a monster holding you, it could swallow you, and Free Movement doesn't help.

+1 to the idea of FM adding to a save against a condition, rather than changing the definition.

Agree this seems to be ‘too many Bead of the Lucky Traveler without tons of competition in the slot’ issue.

Mike Steele wrote: Maybe one savings throw for the group each turn, for everyone with Free Movement they're stuck until the savings throw is made, everyone else stays stuck? Or, maybe instead of immunity Free Movement lets you move, but slower? Maybe you can still move, but just one space per turn, or every third turn?

Great questions. I had some unwritten assumptions when I proposed the idea.

These saves shouldn’t need to differ mechanically. In PTD someone rolls for the group of affected characters. The DM checks the saves or lack of FOM and announces the results. VTD has the dice roller and the DM has FOM written down already.

I picture two situations where checking for FOM applies:
1. There is a present room effect or the monster spends their first turn applying the effect, e.g. spider webs - Everyone gets one chance to make the save. Failures incur a penalty such as a penalty to hit for the room. No further saves are rolled. Potentially players could use their action to try to break free and get another roll, but that does eat up time. I think these effects should be less severe than preventing turns, because any group without FOM amongst them basically loses.

2. The monster attempts to hold players every turn, e.g. a kraken grabbing at characters - This is where I think Drue’s concern of losing time is. A monster rolling attacks and then asking players to roll a save might be too slow. I believe this shouldn’t be worse than saves vs. undead touch attacks. Those effects either last for one turn or until cured; re-rolling would take too long.

For discussion’s sake I’d like to point out that every Bard knows the Inspire spell, so many groups do have a way to break holds rather than rely on FOM.

While not as thematically appropriate, there are a ton of conditions in this game can inflict on players where some of them have counters. Though, this again is just making having FM not matter which undermines the value of having it.

Feel free to remove Eldritch as a damage type from the game while you are at it. Serves only to narrow build variation to further focus on max damage output.