TOPIC: Feedback on Rules Clarification

Brad Mortensen wrote: Jeff, before we continue wordsmithing the “instantaneous” rule, I think it would be helpful if we had examples of scenarios you’re trying to prevent that are allowed under the existing “free action” rules.

I don't think he's trying to "prevent" anything, more over i believe he is trying to "Allow" some actions that are technically not possible.

For example, free action from shield of scholar and using a scroll as my standard. You'd think that is possible except its not because i would need an additional free action to 'ready' or pull out the scroll.

Free action from pouch of tulz to drink a potion, would like to take a standard action to drink another potions...sorry not so fast.

Have a Handy Stein? think you can drink 3 potions? Think again.


DnD handles the issue in part by allowing folks to downgrade actions.
I think in some circumstances we'd still run out of actions.

valetutto wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Jeff, before we continue wordsmithing the “instantaneous” rule, I think it would be helpful if we had examples of scenarios you’re trying to prevent that are allowed under the existing “free action” rules.

I don't think he's trying to "prevent" anything, more over i believe he is trying to "Allow" some actions that are technically not possible.

For example, free action from shield of scholar and using a scroll as my standard. You'd think that is possible except its not because i would need an additional free action to 'ready' or pull out the scroll.

Free action from pouch of tulz to drink a potion, would like to take a standard action to drink another potions...sorry not so fast.

Have a Handy Stein? think you can drink 3 potions? Think again.


DnD handles the issue in part by allowing folks to downgrade actions.
I think in some circumstances we'd still run out of actions.

If that’s true, you could achieve the same effect by saying the standard action to drink a potion or read a scroll includes readying the item.

Now you can Tulz and quaff a second potion without bringing another action type into the mix - which I think is how people would have done it anyway.

Further clarification:

Lenses of sage speed, lenses of divine sight, medallion of mystic mouth are all slotted, so do not change at all with this rule?

Or do they?

What about belt or pants or retrieval?

Druegar wrote:

valetutto wrote: remove the limit on free actions

For everybody playing along at home, Valetutto said the phrase, so take a drink.

Sorry, i already used my free action, so unless the limit is removed i cant ready and drink this round.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Further clarification:

Lenses of sage speed, lenses of divine sight, medallion of mystic mouth are all slotted, so do not change at all with this rule?

Or do they?

I read the proposed changes as leaving those items as they are.

Matthew Hayward wrote: What about belt or pants or retrieval?

They would seem to be covered by this paragraph:

Items like Pouch of Tulz, Lenses of Sage Speed, Shield of the Scholar, etc. that used to let you retrieve and use an item as a Free Action now will be said to let you retrieve and use the item as an Instantaneous Action.

So the belt or pants of retrieval become instantaneous. Unless I missed something you caught.


My read is that the proposed changes allow my Cleric to use free action to activate Lenses of Divine Sight, standard action to cast a healing spell (modified by the lenses), and use an instantaneous action to quaff a healing potion from Pants of Retrieval.

I think the free action change can work, although I'd also want some of the clarifications already requested.

Ranger change, sounds good. I really worry about coaches running out of commons though. If they are well-stocked, great. Or as was mentioned, avoid the problem entirely by printing a "Punch" attack in each slider.

Jeff321 wrote: I think the free action change can work, although I'd also want some of the clarifications already requested.

Ranger change, sounds good. I really worry about coaches running out of commons though. If they are well-stocked, great. Or as was mentioned, avoid the problem entirely by printing a "Punch" attack in each slider.

In order to implement the Combat DM need to uniformly understand melee vs range weapons. Otherwise you will slide a range weapon with a melee weapon. I fully expect the later to happen to me at Origins and GenCon about 40% of the time.

kurtreznor wrote:

Druegar wrote:

valetutto wrote: remove the limit on free actions

For everybody playing along at home, Valetutto said the phrase, so take a drink.

Sorry, i already used my free action, so unless the limit is removed i cant ready and drink this round.

Here are my thoughts about the proposed rules:


1. I assume you are also limited to up to 1 Instantaneous Action a round? Otherwise this makes several tokens much more powerful (e.g. can attack AND use Shield of the Scholar AND Pouch of Tulz AND ... all in one round).

2 a. Which of the following tokens convey their effect now as an Instantaneous Action? I ask because several of these have slightly different timing rules expressed on the token and in Token DB. I think this is all of them.

Ammunition (all types)
Belt of Retrieval
Bracelets of the Zephyr
Cabal Set
Figurines of Power (I think these all take a FA)
Gnomish Fizzy Lifting Pack
Lenses of Divine Sight
Lenses of Safe Speed
Medallion of Mystic Mouth
Pants of Retrieval
Pouch of Tulz
Psychic abilities granted by Teeth of Cavadar and token to unlock Psycic Potential
Quiver of Anointment
Ring of Spell Storing
Shield of the Scholar
Shirt of the Fae
Spell Dust (all types)
Stu's +3 Handy Stein

2 b. Do any of the tokens above require a FA to get them into your hands?

3. How does this change the Bard Instuments Amorgen's Amazon Ocarina, Briano's Blessed Bodhran, and Widseth's Mystical Lute?

All of these used to grant their dual effect though a single standard action. The idea behind this seems to he to have kept the free action open for use with items like Pouch of Tulz or Shield of the Scholar.

If in our Brave New World Shield of the Scholar is an Instantaneous action these already mega powerful tokens get substantially better, or instance with:
* Widseth's Mystical Lute, and
* Shield of the Scholar

You could:
Perform Bardsong (standard A from WML)
Attack (standard B from WML)
Read a scroll (instantaneous from SoTS)

And still have a free action remaining! If Medallion of Mystic Mouth is not changed, you could do all of the above and blast a wand!

I'd recommend these all be changed to consume a Standard and a Free action if the proposal goes forward.


Overall:

I do not fully grock why this is being considered - it seems like the purpose is to:

A. Clarify a long ignored rule that it takes a FA to ready a potion, scroll, wand
B. Change the rules so that the change of in A doesn't lead to different scenarios for players.

To fully understand this I could use the help of some scenarios detailing:

• Old things that are no longer allowed
• New things that are now permitted

All this talk on the rules clarification reminds me of a quote by John Madden...

The fewer rules a {game} has, the fewer rules there are for players to break.

Of course, he used the word “coach” and not “game”...

It seems we are starting to over analyze things...

Apologies to Harlax, but it also seems like experienced True Dungeon players here on the forums desire to “play the rules” instead of “playing the game”.

Oh, and like in Pirates of the Caribbean, “it’s more of a guideline”...

Mongo wrote: Oh, and like in Pirates of the Caribbean, “it’s more of a guideline”...