TOPIC: $8k Super Condensed Auction - CANCELLED

Noah Allington wrote: There is no minimum bid. If you bid first, the bid is both the minimum and maximum. In your example, $2 would be your maximum bid. Others would have to overbid you at $2 each to win the item.

Why wouldn't it open at 0.25, then increase only if someone outbid that amount?

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Noah Allington wrote: There is no minimum bid. If you bid first, the bid is both the minimum and maximum. In your example, $2 would be your maximum bid. Others would have to overbid you at $2 each to win the item.

Why wouldn't it open at 0.25, then increase only if someone outbid that amount?

It is a good question since I see the following listed as winning bids:
Minotaur Hide x 20 $1 Foxtrot
Minotaur Hide x 20

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Noah Allington wrote: There is no minimum bid. If you bid first, the bid is both the minimum and maximum. In your example, $2 would be your maximum bid. Others would have to overbid you at $2 each to win the item.

Why wouldn't it open at 0.25, then increase only if someone outbid that amount?

That's a good question. I figured the community is better at setting minimum prices than I am. Which items would you suggest open at 0.25? Just trade goods? All goods? The implication seems to be that the minimum bid is $0 implicitly, which then implies that you could get, say, Aragonite or a PYP for 0.25/unit if you aren't outbid.

I think it saves everyone's time if you just bid your initial bid on an item without any bids. By all means, if you want to PM me a minimum bid and a maximum bid, on an unbid item I will honor it, but if you're the first bid on an item, I'm going to assume that that's the minimum and maximum. Otherwise there's going to be a lot of bidding just to get up to market rate.

That may be how you intended to run it, but since you copy pasted much of your rules from past auctions, I believe people were expecting the usual type of auction that was more like ebay. For example your rules that bidding early matters and that the price is set by the second highest bidder do not really make sense with what you just explained.

Noah Allington wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Noah Allington wrote: There is no minimum bid. If you bid first, the bid is both the minimum and maximum. In your example, $2 would be your maximum bid. Others would have to overbid you at $2 each to win the item.

Why wouldn't it open at 0.25, then increase only if someone outbid that amount?

That's a good question. I figured the community is better at setting minimum prices than I am. Which items would you suggest open at 0.25? Just trade goods? All goods? The implication seems to be that the minimum bid is $0 implicitly, which then implies that you could get, say, Aragonite or a PYP for 0.25/unit if you aren't outbid.

I think it saves everyone's time if you just bid your initial bid on an item without any bids. By all means, if you want to PM me a minimum bid and a maximum bid, on an unbid item I will honor it, but if you're the first bid on an item, I'm going to assume that that's the minimum and maximum. Otherwise there's going to be a lot of bidding just to get up to market rate.

That's not what "ebay style bidding" means. In an eBay auction the price is set by the 2nd highest bidder (plus some minimum increment), and the auctioneer's starting price.

What you should do is put a starting 'reserve' bid price on items that is the minimum price you are willing to sell them for. Then you should process subsequent bids by looking for the 2nd highest bid for any given item and setting the price to the maximum of the 2nd highest price plus the bid increment, or the max bid, whichever is lesser.

The increment rules you posted will help prevent processing a flurry of small bids, as prices have to jump a certain amount (10 cents? a quarter?) each bid.

Noah Allington wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Noah Allington wrote: There is no minimum bid. If you bid first, the bid is both the minimum and maximum. In your example, $2 would be your maximum bid. Others would have to overbid you at $2 each to win the item.

Why wouldn't it open at 0.25, then increase only if someone outbid that amount?

That's a good question. I figured the community is better at setting minimum prices than I am. Which items would you suggest open at 0.25? Just trade goods? All goods? The implication seems to be that the minimum bid is $0 implicitly, which then implies that you could get, say, Aragonite or a PYP for 0.25/unit if you aren't outbid.

I think it saves everyone's time if you just bid your initial bid on an item without any bids. By all means, if you want to PM me a minimum bid and a maximum bid, on an unbid item I will honor it, but if you're the first bid on an item, I'm going to assume that that's the minimum and maximum. Otherwise there's going to be a lot of bidding just to get up to market rate.

I think the people who bid are expecting not have their only bid be considered a minimum bid. For example if I was the person who bid for 7th Tooth I would not expect to have you lock in a bid at around twice of they have been going for:
7th Tooth x 6 $50 Golf
7th Tooth x2

Or paying over twice another bidder has for item:
1,000 Gold x 20 $12 Foxtrot
1,000 Gold x 24 $5.25 Golf

I am writing to explain the experience I'm having with this auctioneer.

I made several bids in this auction, including on several bids on items without bids.

The auctioneer then proceeded to set the price of those items at my maximum bid, thus both revealing my maximum bid and overcharging me for items which had no competition, which is not in line with the auction rules expressed in the initial note, which indicated:

Bidding is eBay style:
Bids are sent to me via PM
You must bid at least the current bid + the bid increment.
Bid increment on items less than $10: 25 cents
Bid increment on items greater than or equal to $10 and less than $100: $1
Bid increment on items greater than or equal to $100: $5
The winning bid amount is the 2nd highest bid+increment
In the event that multiple bidders all bid the same highest amount, the earliest bid will win the item(s).
"This auction style rewards early bidding, as you win ties and people must raise the bid by at least the bid increment to take it from you.
Since the price is set by the 2nd highest bidder, you enter your top bid initially and may never overpay."

I then asked that the auctioneer simply cancel all my bids.

The auctioneer refused to do so, and over the course of the next day began to insult me in our correspondence, which is included in its entirety below:

• First saying I was acting unfairly (apparently this auctioneer believes bidders don't have a right to cancel bids after the auctioneer violates the posted terms of their auction rules)
• Then that I was acting out of spite, and being unreasonable
• Finally in saying they don't believe my statements, effectively calling me a liar, that my request that they cancel all my bids is unethical

My pseudonym is Golf, and I will not be buying any items from this auction.

Your bids may have been run up by the bids I placed, and the auctioneer seems to be refusing to unwind those bids.

Our correspondence:

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I said:

Hello Noah,

I saw your post on the thread, I don't think the way you are running this auction matches up with the description of the bidding - for instance I my bid on the wish ring should not be $165 unless there is another bidder who has bid at least $160.

If you're going to run the auction in the manner described in post 15 please cancel all my bids.

If you'd like some further description on how auctions are typically run with the rules post you quoted I would be happy to go into some detail on how to conduct one in that manner.

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Noah sent two messages, the first said:

Hi Matt,

I read your comment on the thread. The auction algorithm that you described is exactly how I am doing it. The only thing that I'm not doing is setting a reserve price.

And the second said:

So I assume you would still want to cancel your bids? I understand that, but can I ask that you only cancel the bids that were initial bids on an item? I don't think it's fair to me or the other bidders for you to cancel the bids that worked out exactly as you expected.

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I said:

Hello Noah,

I think the simplest thing is to cancel all my bids.

I'm sorry if this feels unfair to you.

I wouldn't have bid at all, or would have bid differently across the board had the administration of the auction been clear, so it is not only the initial bids of mine that would have been different.

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Noah said:

That's definitely the simplest thing on your end. Nothing is stopping you from rebidding on the items that weren't an initial bid. I'm just asking you to be considerate for the person that has to go through and fix everything based on the bids that you made and fully understood how they would work. If you want to increase your maxes on those, there's nothing stopping you from doing that.

I can't help but feel like you're doing this out of spite more than any attempt at being reasonable about a misunderstanding.

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I said:

I’ve tried to keep this dialogue upbeat and professional. In your first response you said you felt I was being unfair. In the next response you say you think I’m acting out of spite and not being reasonable.

I’m not interested in any further diagnosis from you about the character flaws you percieve in me, and would request that you keep any further dialogue on this topic focused on the business at hand.

Again, I’m sorry this seems to be a negative experience for you.

I do not find your statement that the non-initial bids are being handled in a way concordant with your posted auction rules to be accurate given that some 1000 GP bars are being won at 5.25 and others at 12. Even if they were, as mentioned in my prior note I would not have bid at all, or would have bid differently across the board if the structure of your auction had been properly explained in the initial note, and not clarified in post 15 after I placed bids.

I’m simply not interested in participating at all in an auction being run in this manner.

Please cancel my bids so we may both put this episode behind us.

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Noah said:

I'm not trying to diagnose character flaws. This isn't about character, this is about you doing right by the agreement you entered into by bidding. I gave you the chance to change the rest of your bids. I am willing to believe that you would have bid differently, I'm not willing to believe that you wouldn't have bid at all given the information that was present when you submitted your bid. I'm simply saying you made bids that complied with the rules as you understood them and it is unethical to cancel those bids. Especially given that you're making this judgment based on bids that were contingent upon your own bids. How am I to trust that you are acting in good faith when you decide to cancel your bids based on the information you gleaned after your bids were resolved? You do not have the complete information to make judgments on the exact prices involved, but suffice it to say you were indeed outbid.

I will recount the bid history in general terms without divulging the maximum bids, just to prove to you that things are going correctly.

All of the 1ks started with a bid of 5. Then 20 were bid on with a maximum bid above 5, making the winning bid 5.25, and then you bid on all with a maximum bid of 11. The same bidder that bid before you had bid on 20 with a higher bid than 11, making the winning bid 12.

Therefore 20 are at 12, and 24 are at 5.25.

It is not my fault that you assumed that an item without a price had a minimum of $0. That's unreasonable and you know it. I get the sense that some bidders have been trying to take advantage of me as a new player running an auction, because the bidders who are complaining are clearly in the minority, and everyone else seemed to understand that no reserve does not mean a reserve of $0.

If you cancel all of your bids, I will have to cancel the auction, because it's not fair to the rest of the participants who outbid you that you don't agree with how I'm running the auction, didn't ask for clarification, and yet bid anyway, and then were rightly outbid. There are even those who you outbid, rightly, to whom this is unfair. The math behind the auction is the same, regardless of whether there is a reserve price or not. Regardless of whether there is a reserve or not, you're incentivized to bid what you think the market price is. There are no rules against bidding again if you bid too low.

You have made zero attempt to work together to resolve this. You are the one who has assumed ill intent or incompetence, not me, and I frankly have zero interest in interacting with a community that assumes the worst of its new members rather than the best. You had an opportunity to be a positive and welcoming representative to this new member in the community and you've squandered it.

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I said:

I've asked you nicely 3 times to cancel the bids.

I won't be paying any bids in your auction.

I won't be reading or responding to any further correspondence from you.

I will be sharing my experience with you in your auction thread.

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Matthew Hayward wrote: *Lots Snipped, starting with Matt's copy of the auctioneer's comments*
It is not my fault that you assumed that an item without a price had a minimum of $0. That's unreasonable and you know it. I get the sense that some bidders have been trying to take advantage of me as a new player running an auction, because the bidders who are complaining are clearly in the minority, and everyone else seemed to understand that no reserve does not mean a reserve of $0.

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Not to dogpile, but what? If there's no reserve price listed then the reserve is 0 plus the bid increment. Why would the starting bid be at some secret number that only the auctioneer knows? That seems really poorly thought out. Prices even out based on demand, and the auctioneer doesn't get screwed because there's an overall reserve that needs to be met (in this case $6500). That way it doesn't matter what price individual items sell at, the auctioneer just needs $6500 to pull the trigger, and items find equilibrium based on people bidding on them. That's the way every 8k auction I've ever participated in has been run.

Josh M. wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: *Lots Snipped, starting with Matt's copy of the auctioneer's comments*
It is not my fault that you assumed that an item without a price had a minimum of $0. That's unreasonable and you know it. I get the sense that some bidders have been trying to take advantage of me as a new player running an auction, because the bidders who are complaining are clearly in the minority, and everyone else seemed to understand that no reserve does not mean a reserve of $0.

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Not to dogpile, but what? If there's no reserve price listed then the reserve is 0 plus the bid increment. Why would the starting bid be at some secret number that only the auctioneer knows? That seems really poorly thought out. Prices even out based on demand, and the auctioneer doesn't get screwed because there's an overall reserve that needs to be met (in this case $6500). That way it doesn't matter what price individual items sell at, the auctioneer just needs $6500 to pull the trigger, and items find equilibrium based on people bidding on them. That's the way every 8k auction I've ever participated in has been run.

There simply is no starting bid, starting price or reserve price on individual tokens. I don't see how this is such a difficult concept to understand. This is a second price auction. What is the second price on an item without a bid? It surely isn't $0, as it doesn't have any bids yet. The starting bid isn't some secret number, known only to me, there just isn't one. I didn't hide any information. If there isn't a price, bid what you think the market price is. If you're right, you'll win the item, if you're wrong, someone will overbid you and you can rebid. Reserve prices are not necessary in second price auctions. I'm not overcharging by honoring your bid. I'm not making any judgments. If you want to pay over market to ensure that you get the item, that's not on me to judge as auctioneer. I'm basically performing the job of robot here to process the bids.

What Matt said is true, and I stand by what I said. I was willing to retract his bids, or work with him to rebid for the tokens that did not have any bids, which I think was the best way to move forward without nuking the whole auction, but I stand by my opinion that it is unfair to myself and the rest of the bidders to unwind over 200 bids that were bids that performed as expected. If it's insulting to point out that the request made was unfair and unethical given that Matt also now had information about others' bids when he requested to cancel, and also may have revealed those players' maximum bids to everyone, so be it. I can handle being TD's mildest insulter. I just don't think it's right to claim that your maximum bid is privileged information, but don't care that you might have revealed others', so I pushed back.

As I mentioned in the PMs, this auction will now have to be cancelled. I doubt I'll run another.

To reiterate, based on the rules copy and pasted....any item that only had 1 current bidder will be at 0 plus the bid increment. The likelihood of an aragonite going for 25 cents is nigh zero based on funding goals and the eventuality of a second bidder on anything going for far before market. I believe the biggest issue here is that the way the bids appear to be being managed do not align with the rules and methodology that were being established. When people place their bids, like ebay, they’re placing their ceiling, not what they expect to pay from the get. The minutia of the beginning bids is something you see in most auctions w/o a reserve. I actually have a canned bid I send to most auctioneers I trust that is the floor I'm willing to always pick stuff up for to help mitigate some of that if it's early on in their auctions.

A reserve of $0 assumes that I would rather give away unbid tokens at de minimis prices than sell them at market rates. I don't see why people think that's a reasonable assumption to make, aside from the reasoning of "other people have done it like this, so that must be how this auction is run."

The point being, in a no reserve ebay style, that’s how it mechanically works. If you meet your funding goal and something sells for lower than market, that’s how it is, though I’ve rarely if never seen something go for a ridiculously low price. Anyone can run their auction as they see fit, but if rules are stated, then they need to be followed, which seems to be the missed point. That's the help most people were trying to offer by explaining that.