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TOPIC: Contemplating Gregor's Tome

Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #25

I find it interesting your signature line, Raven:

"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Isn't an auto-succeed token trying to do this?

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #26

I thought the +2 was basically the compromise on a auto-succeed token. Assuming you are failing or skipping all the skill checks +2 to damage or healing is about what you would be getting out of it.

I do not like the auto-succeed concept when arguing for "saving time". Taking too long to do skill checks is systematic issue of the game that should not be solved or addressed by having players pay extra money to circumvent it.
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #27

Thinking on this further I like the idea of making it just an auto pass Token vs. any bonuses. That's my vote.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Albert Einstein

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #28

@Matt -
I too liked the original, but there were voices saying that focus and auto couldn’t be on the same token. That was the context in which I said take out focus, because I wanted autopass more.

Considering everything else going on, you’re right, slotless +1 Focus isn’t that big a deal, but it is power creep.

I’d take the original. I’d take Incognito’s. But I hate the idea of just a slotless +2 Focus and no autopass. I’m so glad Raven brought this all up because I’d given up arguing against it.

I think poly has gotten more than enough help this year already. I’d really like to see it taken off the Tome. That’s the only thing I’d fight you on.
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #29

Matt Goodman wrote: I find it interesting your signature line, Raven:

"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Isn't an auto-succeed token trying to do this?


Another famous TD quote: "Time is the biggest enemy in the dungeon."

Hardcore, Nightmare, and Epic Clerics, Druids, and Wizards routinely take a -3 penalty to around half their spells to help the team achieve their objectives in the dungeon.

This token helps address that.

I can give you the Wizard planar test right now, while playing hopscotch. It's not about skill avoidance.

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #30

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Matt -
I think poly has gotten more than enough help this year already. I’d really like to see it taken off the Tome. That’s the only thing I’d fight you on.


I'd be absolutely fine pulling polymorph damage off.

I agree that the trend of Focus items gaining Polymorph damage is somewhat distressing, as it helps classes be good at everything - it's like stat boosters that buff STR and DEX. They should be few and far between.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #31

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @Matt -
I think poly has gotten more than enough help this year already. I’d really like to see it taken off the Tome. That’s the only thing I’d fight you on.


I'd be absolutely fine pulling polymorph damage off.

I agree that the trend of Focus items gaining Polymorph damage is somewhat distressing, as it helps classes be good at everything - it's like stat boosters that buff STR and DEX. They should be few and far between.


That was the most boring fight ever ;)
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #32

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Raven,
The Rod has a penalty.
The Bowl is a kind of limited or partial bypass.

If It is to be a bypass token, it should include a drawback.

I also don’t think that a UR token is a very good way to address special needs...

As a person who primarily plays caster, I of course like Focus items, and slotless, +2 Focus is a powerful thing. I don’t see how a Focus and a bypass can be easily combined, unless there is zero drawback... or no limitation.

I 100% agree that this token should be what Jeff wants, but to an extent, the discussion from the group is a part of what Jeff wants - right? I don’t want to convey disrespect... it just seems that the original token design skipped a bit of precedent... ultimately Jeff will choose how the token should be... but while we discuss, I have to be true to my own thoughts on the subject...
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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #33

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Arnold wrote: Barring the forever-choice, I think it should split up the classes and add something class-specific in, starting with the Cleric class.

This would help control demand and make it a little bit cooler for each class.


I can mostly agree here... but also there should a cost or drawback.
PROUD MEMBER OF THE DDA! :)
They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to use. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to use once! Oh - and if you really need to think about whether you're going to use the fireball or the + umpty staff of butt-whooping - you're likely to find yourself full of arrows, or fangs, or nasty knives & swords and such. Don't think - just shoot!

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #34

Phrash wrote: I do not like the auto-succeed concept when arguing for "saving time". Taking too long to do skill checks is systematic issue of the game that should not be solved or addressed by having players pay extra money to circumvent it.


That's an interesting perspective.

From my vantage point, the problem isn't that the skill checks take too long, it's that they take too long for the benefit at higher difficulty levels.

At Normal with no URs I'd be taking the time to do the skill checks because the odds that +3 damage saves us a whole round of combat are better than the odds that doing the checks costs us a whole round.

If you want to see skill checks used at each difficulty you need to either make them much faster, e.g.:
- 10 Slides needs to take the same amount of time as
- A bard, a druid, a cleric, two wizard checks and 5 slides

Or scale up - at Hardcore, Nightmare, and Epic the spell bonus should be roughly the same precentage of a monster's max HP as 3 is on Normal.

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #35

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Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: I find it interesting your signature line, Raven:

"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Isn't an auto-succeed token trying to do this?


Another famous TD quote: "Time is the biggest enemy in the dungeon."

Hardcore, Nightmare, and Epic Clerics, Druids, and Wizards routinely take a -3 penalty to around half their spells to help the team achieve their objectives in the dungeon.

This token helps address that.

I can give you the Wizard planar test right now, while playing hopscotch. It's not about skill avoidance.

Time IS the biggest enemy. And part of that is the time to do the skill test... if you bypass it, there should be a cost
PROUD MEMBER OF THE DDA! :)
They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to use. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to use once! Oh - and if you really need to think about whether you're going to use the fireball or the + umpty staff of butt-whooping - you're likely to find yourself full of arrows, or fangs, or nasty knives & swords and such. Don't think - just shoot!

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Contemplating Gregor's Tome 1 year 5 months ago #36

Grekel! wrote: I 100% agree that this token should be what Jeff wants, but to an extent, the discussion from the group is a part of what Jeff wants - right? I don’t want to convey disrespect... it just seems that the original token design skipped a bit of precedent... ultimately Jeff will choose how the token should be... but while we discuss, I have to be true to my own thoughts on the subject...


I'm basing my attitude on this off some of the discussion around Stu's which went:

Players: This is too good!
Jeff: I like it where it is.
Players: No, dammint! It's too good, compare to X/Y/Z.
Jeff: I like it where it is.
Players: But in these scenarios, it's even better than A/B/C.
Jeff: I intend this token to be a memorial token for Stu, I hope to see a lot of players using it, keeping the memory alive.
Players: ... Er... well done.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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